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Thread: ***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14

  1. #9151
    International 12th Man
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    Paraphrasing you. "I want Milne or Henry to fulfill the third seamer role"
    Paraphrasing me. "Yes, because selecting inferior bowlers to replace someone who is starting to perform at a high level makes sense"
    Paraphrasing you: i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing-dog.jpg

  2. #9152
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    you're not very good at reading.

    Try again. Here you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I sorta have to recant on my hoping for Milne to get the gig as third seamer in the near future - I just don't think he'll be capable of bowling long enough spells that we require from our third seamer when Anderson, Neesh/Sodhi are so inconsistent and unable to nail down an end.

    Hopefully Henry can develop into that role.

  3. #9153
    International Captain straw man's Avatar
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    All this discussion clearly points to the fact that Neesham doesn't fit very easily into the current test side - not unless you think it's ok to pick your fourth bowler as much for their batting as their bowling. It makes me wonder if we're being a little cute straying from the four-best-bowlers, wicketkeeper, six-best-batsman formula.

    If Neesham is to play a Jacob Oram role... well Oram batted at 6, which would currently be too high for Neesham and anyway Anderson is there (and also provides overs which reduce the comparative value of Neesham's bowling). If Neesham is to bowl old-ball into the wicket medium pace but better than Oram then in the medium term he probably competes with Wagner for that role. In this current side as fourth seamer I don't think he needs to bowl accurate stock - he needs to be threatening with the ball.

    This discussion is a little redundant when all our alternative seamers are constantly injured but as I posted in the domestic thread, Neesham probably ranks around 10th best seamer in the country and he needs to be a lot closer to 4th to justify his test spot. Milne bowling short bursts at 150km/h would be absolutely ideal as 4th seamer considering we have Anderson and Williamson to pick up overs if need be. (That's a fantasy, no doubt). Or a spinner if we have one worth picking (a question worth discussing after the WI tour and revisiting in full in 12 months). Otherwise though if we want to pick our 'four best bowlers' then Henry, Wheeler and Bennett are there or there abouts. The other benefit of picking one of those is that if touch wood, Southee or Boult are injured at some point, those are our new-ball reserves and it would be good to get one involved sooner rather than later.

    No argument though if McCullum and co want to continue to pick Neesham with the expectation his bowling develops significantly in the next 12 months. We may not even be aware for another 1-2 years whether Neesham's long term position is 6 or 8 - he certainly has masses of ability. Just recognising that right now it's another faith/development pick.

  4. #9154
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Agree with all of that


  5. #9155
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    All this discussion clearly points to the fact that Neesham doesn't fit very easily into the current test side - not unless you think it's ok to pick your fourth bowler as much for their batting as their bowling. It makes me wonder if we're being a little cute straying from the four-best-bowlers, wicketkeeper, six-best-batsman formula.

    If Neesham is to play a Jacob Oram role... well Oram batted at 6, which would currently be too high for Neesham and anyway Anderson is there (and also provides overs which reduce the comparative value of Neesham's bowling). If Neesham is to bowl old-ball into the wicket medium pace but better than Oram then in the medium term he probably competes with Wagner for that role. In this current side as fourth seamer I don't think he needs to bowl accurate stock - he needs to be threatening with the ball.

    This discussion is a little redundant when all our alternative seamers are constantly injured but as I posted in the domestic thread, Neesham probably ranks around 10th best seamer in the country and he needs to be a lot closer to 4th to justify his test spot. Milne bowling short bursts at 150km/h would be absolutely ideal as 4th seamer considering we have Anderson and Williamson to pick up overs if need be. (That's a fantasy, no doubt). Or a spinner if we have one worth picking (a question worth discussing after the WI tour and revisiting in full in 12 months). Otherwise though if we want to pick our 'four best bowlers' then Henry, Wheeler and Bennett are there or there abouts. The other benefit of picking one of those is that if touch wood, Southee or Boult are injured at some point, those are our new-ball reserves and it would be good to get one involved sooner rather than later.

    No argument though if McCullum and co want to continue to pick Neesham with the expectation his bowling develops significantly in the next 12 months. We may not even be aware for another 1-2 years whether Neesham's long term position is 6 or 8 - he certainly has masses of ability. Just recognising that right now it's another faith/development pick.
    Sane discussion points - I think ultimately we're starting to become a little too heavy in players who could bat 4, 5, 6 or 7 for us which has been a longstanding problem for NZ Cricket. I don't know how you encourage some of these guys to take on a top order batting role and do a Richardson (starting with abundantly more talent with the bat than he did when he changed from a bowler to a batter) but I figure if you don't, you'll have the same old problem in a few years time of either forcing non openers to open (ala Sinclair, Fleming, etc) or you'll need to leave some of your better players out of the line up in order to pick significantly weaker options ( Fulton vs some of the guys we could bat at 5, 6 or 7 )

  6. #9156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blocky View Post
    Sane discussion points - I think ultimately we're starting to become a little too heavy in players who could bat 4, 5, 6 or 7 for us which has been a longstanding problem for NZ Cricket. I don't know how you encourage some of these guys to take on a top order batting role and do a Richardson (starting with abundantly more talent with the bat than he did when he changed from a bowler to a batter) but I figure if you don't, you'll have the same old problem in a few years time of either forcing non openers to open (ala Sinclair, Fleming, etc) or you'll need to leave some of your better players out of the line up in order to pick significantly weaker options ( Fulton vs some of the guys we could bat at 5, 6 or 7 )
    Unfortunately the landscape is so much different in 2014. Could you convince Jimmy to turn himself into a turgid opener who leaves 5-6 balls, when he's just signed an IPL contract worth more than he may make from NZC throughout 2014-15? I'd be surprised.

    You'd have to find a mid-late 20s middle order player who isn't on NZ's radar and convince him to do so. That's where Rigor was

  7. #9157
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNZ View Post
    Unfortunately the landscape is so much different in 2014. Could you convince Jimmy to turn himself into a turgid opener who leaves 5-6 balls, when he's just signed an IPL contract worth more than he may make from NZC throughout 2014-15? I'd be surprised.

    You'd have to find a mid-late 20s middle order player who isn't on NZ's radar and convince him to do so. That's where Rigor was
    I think for a Jimmy or a Corey Anderson - they'll likely look at the 5 and 6 options and back themselves to be good enough longer term, but looking outside that mix, a Jesse Ryder, Will Young, Craig Cachopa type player should take it under extreme advisement to look into it as an option.

  8. #9158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blocky View Post
    Sane discussion points - I think ultimately we're starting to become a little too heavy in players who could bat 4, 5, 6 or 7 for us which has been a longstanding problem for NZ Cricket. I don't know how you encourage some of these guys to take on a top order batting role and do a Richardson (starting with abundantly more talent with the bat than he did when he changed from a bowler to a batter) but I figure if you don't, you'll have the same old problem in a few years time of either forcing non openers to open (ala Sinclair, Fleming, etc) or you'll need to leave some of your better players out of the line up in order to pick significantly weaker options ( Fulton vs some of the guys we could bat at 5, 6 or 7 )
    Yep, massive problem for a long time that we're flush with middle/lower order batsmen and don't have openers. Apart from McCullum and Mark Richardson, it's really not since Brian Young and Matt Horne that we've had openers that you could really say were 'established' in the team.

    The unfortunate thing is that people have identified that there's a gaping hole at the top of the NZ test batting order and domestic players have moved up the top of their FC sides to compete for that spot. Fulton, Flynn, Nicol, Broom and most recently Latham. Unfortunately either due to not being good enough, or struggling with adjusting their games, or just not having the rare bloody-mindedness of Mark Richardson, it hasn't worked out that well so far.

  9. #9159
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    The best 4 bowlers in the country right now are very likely Southee, Boult, Wagner and Graeme Aldridge.

    Graeme Aldridge is the future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    If Neesham is to play a Jacob Oram role... well Oram batted at 6, which would currently be too high for Neesham and anyway Anderson is there (and also provides overs which reduce the comparative value of Neesham's bowling).
    Oram kinda floated between 6 & 7 though, going as high as 5 and as low as 8. He actually only ever played at the same spot across two matches (four innings) twice; at 6 once and at 7 once. He often changed in match as situation dictated. He played 22 innings at 6 and 23 at 7, averaging 34 and 42 respectively (2 100s vs 3 100s respectively). 6 may be a bit high considering the actual suggested quality of our 3-6, but could see him come in at 7 if the situation requires a dasher and not the steady hand of our beloved Watling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Graeme Aldridge is the future.
    And the present.

    And the past.

    Mostly the past.

  12. #9162
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    Good knock, btw.

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    Last edited by Flem274*; 24-02-2014 at 03:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jeets doesn't really deserve to be bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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  14. #9164
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    Oram kinda floated between 6 & 7 though, going as high as 5 and as low as 8. He actually only ever played at the same spot across two matches (four innings) twice; at 6 once and at 7 once. He often changed in match as situation dictated. He played 22 innings at 6 and 23 at 7, averaging 34 and 42 respectively (2 100s vs 3 100s respectively). 6 may be a bit high considering the actual suggested quality of our 3-6, but could see him come in at 7 if the situation requires a dasher and not the steady hand of our beloved Watling.
    Yes looking at Oram's record I was surprised to see how much he moved between 5 and 8. I guess my main point though is that through the middle of his test career he was definitely good enough to bat at 6, even if he didn't always.



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