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Pujara could be batting equivalent of McGrath

Xuhaib

International Coach
Atleast imo.

McGrath eventhough was a great bowler but I thought his stats were boosted 10-20% by modern batsmen aggresive approach and their indiscipline around their offstump i reckon if he would have played in 70's and 80's he would have averaged around the 25-26 mark instead of 21 that he ended up with. I feel the same thing can happen with Pujara but ofcourse in reverse as not many modern day bowlers are use to batsman who are so astute in ball leaving and judgement of their offstump hence the indiscipline creeps in as they look to lure the batsman in playing a flase stroke and loose their lines. I thought SA did not bowl badly but due to outstanding awareness by the 2 batsmen of their off stump they would loose patience and deliver an odd loose ball which to Kohli and Pujara credit they would make full use off it.

I think Pujara is talented enough to average 50 in test cricket as it is however with this skill off being able to know his defensive game so well he will be able to get on top off modern day fast bowlers who are not use to batsman with such defensive discipline and may even average 55 or 60+
 

Jassy

Banned
McGrath's average was boosted by indiscipline? WTF?! That was McGrath's USP, he made the batsmen crap themselves mentally. He MADE them uncertain. Jeez, precious few bowlers in history have worked over a batsman as well as he used to. This ''awareness of off stump'' that you speak of isn't just looking back and saying hey, that is where my off-stump is. It is about what happens in that split second when the bowler is delivered from the bowler's hand to when it reaches you.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
This argument about McGrath doesn't hold and it's one of the myths that keeps going around without any data to back it up. In fact, the patient batsmen often had the most trouble with him. In the rare occasion that people got on top of him, they were not the ones you'd associate with good judgement about leaving balls.

McGrath's stats, if anything, would have been better in previous eras when they didn't have the same attacking mindset - they would have been even more unnerved because they'd try to leave, misjudge it just a little bit, and get pwned.
 
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91Jmay

International Coach
If Mike Atherton had one thing (and he pretty much only had one thing) it was patience/discipline.
 

Flem274*

123/5
You had to attack McGrath. He wanted you to try and play him out so he could work you over. You needed to throw him off his line and length. I remember reading Nathan Astle saying he had a conversation with (then coach) Steve Rixon on how to play him before and ODI.

"What are you going to do about McGrath?"
"Play him out, smash the rest"
"He wants you to do that. Smash him."

Astle scored a ton.

Incidentally, I think batsmen need to take the same approach to Philander.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Steve Waugh used to say that he never understood why, particularly later on, people didn't bat out there crease and use there feet to McGrath.
 

Burgey

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lol at this thread. Had McGrath played earlier he'd have averaged more, because patience.

Completely ignores the roads he bowled on in the 2000s, but still averaged 21 or so and took bucket loads. Pujara should be hoping that by his career' s end he's considered worthy of carrying McGrath's jockstrap as a cricketer.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
I'm going to assume this thread is more about Pujara than it is about McGrath, so I won't bother with the McGrath-vs-indisciplined batsmen error.

What we've seen in the last 5 years is a resurgence in swing bowling. Anderson, Zaheer Khan, Southee and Boult etc type bowlers were nowhere near as prevalent as they were 10 years ago. Even if there were bowlers who could swing it if they wanted to, they tended not to use swing as their primary means of strike bowling. They have done very well because modern batsmen play early and through the line of the ball, looking for scoring uptions.

Pujara is a batsman who plays the ball extremely late and doesn't reach forward to the ball. This makes him excellent against swing bowlers. It also limits him in terms of his scoring option down the ground. He's the opposite of a Watson or Guptill type player. His wagon wheel last night was like butterfly wings, there were no runs straight but plenty of late cuts and flicks.

Joe Root is a similar type of player. Not quite as complete but he has a similar mode of scoring.

You need a well rounded attack to get these types of players out. You can't give them any width because they'll score off it. But I think you also need pace so that they can't rely on just waiting for the ball. Although Root has been moderately successful in the Ashes, Harris and Siddle have been extremely accurate in not giving him any width and Johnson has enough pace to unsettle his MO.
 
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the big bambino

International Captain
This argument about McGrath doesn't hold and it's one of the myths that keeps going around without any data to back it up. In fact, the patient batsmen often had the most trouble with him. In the rare occasion that people got on top of him, they were not the ones you'd associate with good judgement about leaving balls.

McGrath's stats, if anything, would have been better in previous eras when they didn't have the same attacking mindset - they would have been even more unnerved because they'd try to leave, misjudge it just a little bit, and get pwned.
There is evidence for it. McGrath paid most for his wkts v SA and NZ, both comparatively modest batting sides in his era and more defensive than say India whom McGrath owned. There is also the series against NZ when he averaged around 60 where they adopted the tactic of leaving him alone outside off and making him bowl to them. Warne preferred more defensive teams and consequently did well against SA for example while if you took the game to him as India did (and our shield batsmen) then he could be mastered. While both were great bowlers it is arguable that McGrath's average would have been higher, as the thread starter suggests, if teams were more patient with him. The stats seemed to show that if teams could have "left" McGrath and attacked Warne they would have come closer to competing with Australia. However you need to have the resources and mindset to do it. Some teams are culturally more aggressive and others more defensive. It would need a team with batsmen capable of applying different attitudes during an innings depending on the bowler they are facing. Difficult but not impossible.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Look at individual batsmen and their scoring rates vs. success. I did a detailed breakdown years ago. The results were very clear.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Yet the individual results can be neatly accumulated by team. Apart from an odd ball result against BD McGrath struck at 60 and 71 v NZ and SA. His economy rate against both was around his career average. Both teams made him bowl more often than others to take their wickets. I reckon both were more successful in leaving his line just outside off alone. There is enough encouragement for teams to develop tactics around denying McGrath wickets (Just like Oz did with Murali when playing Lanka) by following the Fleming example; and attack Warne like India did. Whether any team could implement such a divergence of attack and committed defence is another thing though.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Surely two series are to little to draw any conclusions. Couldn't those guys have batted really well and he bowled poorly? Or some combination of both.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
I'm talking about his overall performance against SA and NZ (and similarly Warne's against India and his shield record too). I'm just using Fleming's series as a representative example.
 

Dissector

International Debutant
I have said for a while that Pujara will break the major test records and average more than 60 in his career. He has the kind of remorseless efficiency that I imagine Bradman had and this test showed that he can score outside India. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he averages more than 70 in his career.
 

Xuhaib

International Coach
people bringing in Mcgrath and Atherton example need to realize that there was a gulf in class between the two. Maybe Atherton did overachieve in his career because he showed that off stump discipline against other bowlers however against Mcgrath he suffered because Mcgrath nullified his main strength as Mcgrath was able to keep on probing the off stump line longer then the other bowlers.I am not having a go at Mcgrath or Pujara I am saying they would be world class in any case however their stats are or would be slightly better then the other world class players in their own era since they bring a discipline to their game which is unique for the era in which they are playing.
 

Senile Sentry

International Debutant
people bringing in Mcgrath and Atherton example need to realize that there was a gulf in class between the two. Maybe Atherton did overachieve in his career because he showed that off stump discipline against other bowlers however against Mcgrath he suffered because Mcgrath nullified his main strength as Mcgrath was able to keep on probing the off stump line longer then the other bowlers.I am not having a go at Mcgrath or Pujara I am saying they would be world class in any case however their stats are or would be slightly better then the other world class players in their own era since they bring a discipline to their game which is unique for the era in which they are playing.
Agree to a great extent.

Atherton is over rated in these forums and testimony to that is his sub 40 batting average. He was a dour defensive player who tended to push above his weight and survived in the English team largely because there really weren't better players. In makes, he is comparable to say an Aakash Chopra or a Azhar Ali who has immense patience but is stuck in the first gear for long.

But I disagree with your Pujara example. How many players are averaging in the 60s in test cricket at this very juncture after having played a reasonable amount of matches? Pujara took on the likes of Steyn, Philander etc at their den and has shown he can score big there as well. McGrath similarly took on the likes of Tendulkar and Lara and stamped his dominance on them as well. I agree his average wouldn't be so kosher had he been playing all the time against subcontinental teams, and also played a significant proportion against England, whom he individually and Aus collectively made mincemeat of in his time.
 

Burgey

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How many tests has Pujara played? I remember Jimmy Adams averaging 70 after 20 or 25 tests, so you kind of need to be a bit careful judging these players so soon.

Fwiw though I really think Pujara is the real deal. Quality player.
 

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