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Will West Indies ever become as good as they were?

WindieWeathers

International Regular
Angelo Mathews is definitely world class. Warner too. But you're right, there aren't many top class bats who've yet to celebrate their 30th.

There remains - imo - an enormous difference between the likes of Chanderpaul and Lara and Bravo. I didn't really follow the "what's the definition of World Class" thread that closely, but I'd argue fairly strongly that Bravo doesn't make the cut yet.
Yes Angelo is top class..but really was his innings in England any better than Darren's 200 in NZ? Not sure about Warner either..he done well in Sa but what's his record in Asia and England? i know he struggled in the caribbean the last time they came.
 

Maximas

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah look, Bravo's 200 was brilliant but Matthews knock at Headingley was ATG, pulled SL from a very vulnerable position into a matchwinning position despite the pressure of batting with the tail, in any case he's been a much more consistent and prolific than Bravo of late, he can bowl too. Warner is world class because of the dearth of quality openers playing test cricket atm.
 

Howsie

International Captain
Name batsmen in their 20s who are world class then Howsie? please enlighten me :D
Mathews and Warner, like Bahnz are the only two I can think of. It depends on your definition on world class obviously but to me that means 'best of the best'. Guys like AB de Villers, Michael Clarke, Kumar Sangakkara etc. Bravo isn't near that class. He's with the likes of (in order of potential greatness) Kane Williamson, Virat Kohli, Joe Root and Steven Smith. Young batsman on the cusp of going to the next level. In all probability he'll probably drop away from that group as he's shown the least amount of growth out of the four over the last two years. Most definitely Williamson and Kohli anyway.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Well actually it wasn't just a "one off" against NZ was it? he's hurt them in three tests he's played against them. And Benn "running through bang" means absolutely nothing..when we needed him in the second innings of the 3rd test against NZ he was nowhere to be seen...i don't think Sunny would have let us down like that.

Like i said there are levels..Benn is good, Narine can be great...big difference and that is why Sunny will play against India whether Benn is there or not.
Narine did bugger all in that second innings against NZ. Windies lost both tests and neither Benn nor Narine are to blame for that. You're better off blaming Ramdin than Benn.

There are also questions over his action. It seems highly likely he'll be tested in the coming months.
 

RossTaylorsBox

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
And Benn "running through bang" means absolutely nothing..when we needed him in the second innings of the 3rd test against NZ he was nowhere to be seen...i don't think Sunny would have let us down like that.
Except for that time he couldn't get a wicket in the final innings of the 3rd test.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Except for that time he couldn't get a wicket in the final innings of the 3rd test.
Not really a fair comparison - unless they're playing on an absolute minefield, most bowlers end up looking **** when they've only got 100 to defend because there's so little pressure on the batsmen. For example Boult and Southee were made to look like club bowlers by Gayle at the end of the 2nd test in June, mainly because Gayle new that he could tee-off with only 90 odd needed to win.
 
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WindieWeathers

International Regular
Mathews and Warner, like Bahnz are the only two I can think of. It depends on your definition on world class obviously but to me that means 'best of the best'. Guys like AB de Villers, Michael Clarke, Kumar Sangakkara etc. Bravo isn't near that class. He's with the likes of (in order of potential greatness) Kane Williamson, Virat Kohli, Joe Root and Steven Smith. Young batsman on the cusp of going to the next level. In all probability he'll probably drop away from that group as he's shown the least amount of growth out of the four over the last two years. Most definitely Williamson and Kohli anyway.
LOL how can that be the case when he scored a double hundred and then another hundred in his last six tests and continues to have a better average then the two you mentioned? Kane scores two hundreds against us and suddenly he's "grown more"? i don't get that logic.

If anyone has "grown" it's Kaigg Brathwaite who at the age of 21 already has a double hundred to his name and has taken his average from 21 up to near 40 in just five test matches.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
Narine did bugger all in that second innings against NZ. Windies lost both tests and neither Benn nor Narine are to blame for that. You're better off blaming Ramdin than Benn.

There are also questions over his action. It seems highly likely he'll be tested in the coming months.
Big difference being NZ were chasing a minor score in Narine's match...Sunny could have taken a 4fer and it probably wouldn't have made a difference. Benn on the otherhand had the chance to restrict the kiwis and went missing in action...

As your last comment!!.. "questions" by WHO exactly? haters who want to tar every mystery spinner with the same brush Ajmal has been tarred with? 8-) Narine has played everywhere outside the Caribbean and has not been called...therefore there are no "questions" as far as i'm concerned.

Jealousy really is a bad disease.
 

RossTaylorsBox

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not really a fair comparison - unless they're playing on an absolute minefield, most bowlers end up looking **** when they've only got 100 to defend because there's so little pressure on the batsmen. For example Boult and Southee were made to look like club bowlers by Gayle at the end of the 2nd test in June, mainly because Gayle new that he could tee-off with only 90 odd needed to win.
For a guy being touted as a world-class match winning spinner the standard should be more than zero wickets in a final innings against New Zealand, even with a low score and KW.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
Not really a fair comparison - unless they're playing on an absolute minefield, most bowlers end up looking **** when they've only got 100 to defend because there's so little pressure on the batsmen. For example Boult and Southee were made to look like club bowlers by Gayle at the end of the 2nd test in June, mainly because Gayle new that he could tee-off with only 90 odd needed to win.
Thank you..finally someone speaks with some logic.

If Narine had had 230/260 to defend the story would been interesting..same with any quality bowler.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
as your last comment!!.. "questions" by who exactly? Haters who want to tar every mystery spinner with the same brush ajmal has been tarred with? 8-) narine has played everywhere outside the caribbean and has not been called...therefore there are no "questions" as far as i'm concerned.

jealousy really is a bad disease.
gagf.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Translate? :huh:
It translates to something not particularly polite. Honestly, accusing hendrix of jealousy wrt Narine is just dumb and pointlessly incendiary. And if Narine doesn't want people whispering about his action then he should stop bowling in ****ing long sleeves. It's become the biggest red flag ever since Ashwin made his comments about it earlier in the year (comments which were transparently aimed at Narine).
 
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WindieWeathers

International Regular
It translates to something not particularly polite. Honestly, accussing hendrix of jealousy wrt Narine is just dumb and pointlessly incendiary. And if Narine doesn't want people whispering about his action then he should stop bowling in ****ing long sleeves. It's become the biggest red flag ever since Ashwin made his comments about it earlier in the year (comments which were transparently aimed at Narine).
The jealousy comment was not just aimed at him but at anyone who has the nerve to start barking "Narine is throwing" when they didn't open their mouths before Ajmal was banned and there is no evidence to prove it right now!! 8-) ..that's my point. Furthermore who is "whispering"? not a single opposition player, commentator, journo or former player has talked about Narine...therefore that is why i believe some fans are jealous because their team simply hasn't got a Narine to call upon.

Lasly would that be the same "Ashwin" who was trying to COPY Sunil's action the other day? i guess he was also "throwing" then aswell right? :D
 

Howsie

International Captain
LOL how can that be the case when he scored a double hundred and then another hundred in his last six tests and continues to have a better average then the two you mentioned? Kane scores two hundreds against us and suddenly he's "grown more"? i don't get that logic.

If anyone has "grown" it's Kaigg Brathwaite who at the age of 21 already has a double hundred to his name and has taken his average from 21 up to near 40 in just five test matches.
Surprisingly enough there is cricket played elsewhere in the world that doesn't involve the West Indies. Williamson's improvement as a batsman stretches a lot further back than a couple of months ago, about 18 months to be precise. Since the start of 2013 he's knocked out 1330 runs @ 50. Root 1600 @ 50, Smith 1120 @ 44 and Kohli 900 @ 40. Bravo during that same period has managed 674 @ 37.

Bravo is a good bat but I don't see him going on to average 50 plus. Just haven't seen the same rate of improvement in his game.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Lasly would that be the same "Ashwin" who was trying to COPY Sunil's action the other day? i guess he was also "throwing" then aswell right? :D
I really don't get why you're using quotation marks here. Are you trying to insinuate that someone has kidnapped Ashwin and replaced him with a body double?
 

Maximas

Cricketer Of The Year
Big difference being NZ were chasing a minor score in Narine's match...Sunny could have taken a 4fer and it probably wouldn't have made a difference. Benn on the otherhand had the chance to restrict the kiwis and went missing in action...
Don't think you can read too much into one innings performance, didn't Shillingford have less runs to play with and a less responsive pitch in the first test in NZ yet he managed 4/26 - it can be a bit of a lottery i find
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
Surprisingly enough there is cricket played elsewhere in the world that doesn't involve the West Indies. Williamson's improvement as a batsman stretches a lot further back than a couple of months ago, about 18 months to be precise. Since the start of 2013 he's knocked out 1330 runs @ 50. Root 1600 @ 50, Smith 1120 @ 44 and Kohli 900 @ 40. Bravo during that same period has managed 674 @ 37.

Bravo is a good bat but I don't see him going on to average 50 plus. Just haven't seen the same rate of improvement in his game.
Darren has played less tests than those mentioned above though...and also going by your logic Kohli is going more backwards than Darren after that shocking England series right? but in reality he isn't..he just had a bad time and that's how the game goes...just like if Darren isn't tearing up the place it doesn't mean he isn't world class.

Lastly he's average mid to high 40s for the majority of his career..if anyone can average 50 it's him as one would expect him to become more wiser with more experience.
 

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