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Thread: Seam movement - Random or not?

  1. #16
    International Vice-Captain Riggins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    ^^^^^^^ almost word-for-word what I was going to say.

    McGrath had it right for many reasons but one in particular was how blokes like him put the ball in such a good spot, it essentially becomes irrelevant whether the ball comes in or goes out because it's going to be tough to play regardless. Big sideways movement isn't anywhere near as important against good players as introducing that split second of doubt in whether they should go back or forward, for example.

    EDIT: @ Riggs.
    Yeah the thing about seam movement is that it rarely goes very far. If guys get a long way forwards or back, it's not usually enough to beat the bat or get the edge and you can cover it pretty comfortably. It's why taller blokes, all other things being equal, are usually harder to face. Because of the steeper bounce that length is in a more dangerous spot and I guess it's a bit bigger.
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  2. #17
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    I'm a bit of a medium pace dobbler.

    My standard ball just swings away, but I always feel like if I face the seam on an angle toward leg slip and it stays relatively upright on the way down, it's likely to hit the seam on an angle that'll jag the ball back in to the batsman's pads.

  3. #18
    International Captain straw man's Avatar
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    I tend to think that good bowlers with good seam position do have some control over which side of the seam will hit the dirt and therefore which way the ball will move. Makes sense that if the axis of rotation is slightly off perpendicular one way or the other then the ball will predictably move in a certain direction. Since others have brought up their own hack bowling, I too find when I try to bowl outswing the seam position often comes out such that the ball seams in (gently) to the batsman. I know this is Outswing: You're Doing It Wrong, but I get this result fairly consistently. So it makes sense to me that someone who has mastered the art of bowling could use this deliberately to their advantage.

    However there are certainly other times or other bowlers who make no attempt to control which way the ball may seam and are happy to leave it to chance. Peter Siddle does this sometimes. Holds the ball at a slight angle and then rips his fingers down the back of the ball (not quite along the axis of the seam). Seam comes out a little scrambled and has a fairly good chance to move one way our the other when it pitches, though i find it hard to believe he knows which way it will move and the batsman sure as hell doesn't either.

  4. #19
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    I think good bowlers generally do have an idea which way the ball will seam but how much is something that they probably don't have an idea about
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    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  5. #20
    International Captain OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    I tend to think that good bowlers with good seam position do have some control over which side of the seam will hit the dirt and therefore which way the ball will move. Makes sense that if the axis of rotation is slightly off perpendicular one way or the other then the ball will predictably move in a certain direction. Since others have brought up their own hack bowling, I too find when I try to bowl outswing the seam position often comes out such that the ball seams in (gently) to the batsman. I know this is Outswing: You're Doing It Wrong, but I get this result fairly consistently. So it makes sense to me that someone who has mastered the art of bowling could use this deliberately to their advantage.

    However there are certainly other times or other bowlers who make no attempt to control which way the ball may seam and are happy to leave it to chance. Peter Siddle does this sometimes. Holds the ball at a slight angle and then rips his fingers down the back of the ball (not quite along the axis of the seam). Seam comes out a little scrambled and has a fairly good chance to move one way our the other when it pitches, though i find it hard to believe he knows which way it will move and the batsman sure as hell doesn't either.
    This is what I have a hard time buying. Swing is something which the bowler intends and has full control over which way it'll go because of the seam's angle at the point of delivery. But seam movement off the deck depends on the seam's angle when the ball lands on the pitch or just before. Are you saying that bowlers know what the angle of the seam will be when it LANDS, around 15 yards away? That's just extremely difficult to do imo
    Last edited by OverratedSanity; 05-11-2013 at 01:50 AM.

  6. #21
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Why not? If you're capable of getting the seam position just so in order that you get the type and amount of swing you want, why can't you do the same for seam movement?

    That's not to say natural variation off the wicket isn't a factor, or even a big one. But I think we might be selling some of these guys short.
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  7. #22
    International Coach Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverratedSanity View Post
    This is what I have a hard time buying. Swing is something which the bowler intends and has full control over which way it'll go because of the seam's angle at the point of delivery. But seam movement off the deck depends on the seam's angle when the ball lands on the pitch or just before. Are you saying that bowlers know what the angle of the seam will be when it LANDS, around 15 yards away? That's just extremely difficult to do imo
    1) Yes. Some of those bowlers have close to perfect seam presentation. Watch some slow motion replays of the best bowlers in the world and you will see it is not a big deal for them to accomplish.

    2) Some international bowlers honestly have no idea however. They just bowl seam up and get it to nibble either way at random. Ewen Chatfield subscribed to this theory.

    3) This may be getting into how to suck eggs territory but the above two points I have made already have gone there - so I will add that there is a more reliable method of moving the old ball around off the deck - and that is just through cutters and rolling your fingers down the side of the ball. Imparting leg spin at pace with just two fingers is harder to master than an off cutter but is the more rewarding one to have in your control. The final trick in the bag is the top spinner bowled at pace while holding it across the seam. Invariably it hits the seam and pops and is the perfect bouncer.

    4) I think the perfect example of someone deliberately seaming the ball at will was Hadlee to Greg Mathews during his 9-52. He brought one back in and nailed him in the box. The next ball he seamed it the same way and again right at his nuts and Matthews wanted no part of it and it bowled him.
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    Proudly against the bring back Bennett movement since he is injury prone and won't last 5 days.

  8. #23
    International Coach Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Why not? If you're capable of getting the seam position just so in order that you get the type and amount of swing you want, why can't you do the same for seam movement?

    That's not to say natural variation off the wicket isn't a factor, or even a big one. But I think we might be selling some of these guys short.
    AWTA you said what I said but more crisply. Couldn't like this post for some reason.

  9. #24
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Hurricane;3158358]1) Yes. Some of those bowlers have close to perfect seam presentation. Watch some slow motion replays of the best bowlers in the world and you will see it is not a big deal for them to accomplish.

    [/QUOTE

    I remember that in countless Sharjah ODI tournaments they would show slow motion replays of wasim's bowling and the seam was absolutely perfectly rotating before bouncing and wasn't wobbling before hitting the pitch

  10. #25
    State Regular GuyFromLancs's Avatar
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    If seem movement was random, then we'd all be as good Glen McGrath
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  11. #26
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    AWTA you said what I said but more crisply. Couldn't like this post for some reason.
    I'm a very unlikable man tbf

  12. #27
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximas View Post
    Seam movement or just purely angling the ball across him and pushing it wider?
    Seam movement.

    And it's not random. You can be naturally predisposed to seaming it one way or the other based on your action, but it's definitely not random. Unless you have no idea what you're doing of course,,,then it's random
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  13. #28
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    That's to do with swing.

    A lot of what looks like seam movement is actually just very late, minimal swing -e.g. Zaheer Khan used to be quite good at this.
    I disagree with the second part. Seam and swing are very different. It should be clear when a ball has jagged off the deck and when it's moved in the air after pitching.

  14. #29
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverratedSanity View Post
    This is what I have a hard time buying. Swing is something which the bowler intends and has full control over which way it'll go because of the seam's angle at the point of delivery. But seam movement off the deck depends on the seam's angle when the ball lands on the pitch or just before. Are you saying that bowlers know what the angle of the seam will be when it LANDS, around 15 yards away? That's just extremely difficult to do imo
    They do because they know their own natural seam angle. If you've spent a lot of time bowling with a natural seam angle that points over leg stump, then you gradually work out that's the direction the ball will go a majority of the time. It's not so much knowing how far it will go, but in which direction (most of the time - you can land 6 with the same seam position and 5 will cut in, and the other will go the opposite way). The difficulty then comes in getting it to go the other way when you want it to. But if you're hitting the right spot it doesn't really matter.

    It's really not as difficult as you suggest to know what angle the seam will be at when it lands though, it should be the same angle you released it at.

    The premise behind swing and seam is essentially the same. You get the seam pointing in the right direction and away you go. As TC said, with seam you're looking to hit the deck in the right spot more often than not, with a really good seam position, and then let the ball do the work.
    Last edited by Son Of Coco; 05-11-2013 at 04:10 AM.
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  15. #30
    International Captain Maximas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son Of Coco View Post
    Seam movement.

    And it's not random. You can be naturally predisposed to seaming it one way or the other based on your action, but it's definitely not random. Unless you have no idea what you're doing of course,,,then it's random
    I knew what I was doing - and that was trying to randomize it
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