***Official*** West Indies in New Zealand 2013/14

[Athlai]

WW can you post your ratings of every member in each XI so far. Would love your opinions on both you guys and ours.

I'd do the same but since I've been working I've only caught around 3-4 hours so far. Have thankfully managed to catch Boult's 5fer, Taylor's 100 and 200 in the first game, and Bravo raising the bat for the double. Haven't felt too robbed of my cricket watching so far.

 

[kyear2]

Saw an interview with Ian Bishop tonight and now even him have come around to the fact that Sammy is a drag on the entire team as he is not a Test standard #3 seamer.

Sammy though is not our only promlem. Tino and Gabriel are not test standard either, and if they were our only or best (no pun intended) options it would be understandaable, but they are not and Cummins in particular has so much potential and was accustomed to the conditions in India for the A tour that it would have made perfect sense and he would have been a handful in NZ conditions. Kirk looks solid and should be placed at No. 3 when the opener situation is resloved with Bravo moving to 4, Chanderpaul at 5 and Samuels at 6. Jonathan Carter also looks a good prospect but has to improve his consistency at home first. Once Roach and Ravi are fit and well then a bowling attack of Roach, Cummins, Rampaul and Shillingford with be a huge improvement over this disaster of an attack currently on display.

 

[hendrix]

HI!!..personally..with our tracks being spinner friendly i doubt we'll be playing three quicks, we'll probably play Narine and Shilly with Roach and Rampaul!!..thats our best attack and i'm not sure many teams will cope with that on our turf!!..but we'll see. This and the India series has been a massive wake up call for our cricket and though we're hurting it could very well be a blessing in disguise!!..big changes are sure to be made and most importantly our domestic games needs drastic improvement!!..which is currently being discussed right now.

Maybe i'm naive or it's just wishful thinking but despite the mess we've seen from this series i don't see NZ surviving our spinners in our conditions!!..Shilly has a 10fer vs Australia at home while Narine tormented the NZ batsmen the last time they visited us!!...and when you also have Roach and Rampaul to deal with!!..who imo are every bit as effective as Southee and Boult!!..then the story should look a lot different this time..whatever the case it should make interesting viewing..

I see why you'd be excited about this, but:
a) NZ's batsmen are much better at playing spin than they were 2 years ago. They've gone through tours against very good spin bowling sides on the subcontinent and have had moderate success. There's also the fact that Shillingford may be neutered by not being able to bowl his doosra, and Sunil Narine hasn't played enough recently to have any form going into it. It will be a challenge, but it's not insurmountable.

b) I agree that Roach in particular is a very talented bowler, but over the past 2 years Southee and Boult have consistently been one of the best new ball attacks going around - they've run through England, India and Sri Lanka, all in unfavourable conditions for fast bowling. Roach has the potential to be excellent and Rampaul can be a consistent bowler but they haven't actually put together those numbers lately - through either fitness or non-selection. So I still think you'd have to say that the pace bowling battle is advantage NZ, for the time being.

Roach, Rampaul, Narine and Shillingford definitely has a nice look to it though.

 

[Athlai]

Is Fidel Edwards crook again?

Also what happened to Andre Russell? Couldn't he bowl 3rd?

 

[WindieWeathers]

We may have to agree to disagree on that one.

Some may not rate Rampaul that highly!!..but when it comes to Roach that kid is world class and imo better than the two NZ bowlers!!..but hey it's all about opinions and i respect your right to disagree.

The bottom line is in the caribbean we've got the clear spin advantage and i'd expect that to play a huge role in the series...like it did last time.

 

[kyear2]

Is Fidel Edwards crook again?

Also what happened to Andre Russell? Couldn't he bowl 3rd?

Fidel is more fragile than Rampaul (though he is fit right now) and Russell is Sammy lite.

 

[Athlai]

Why in the world would you not bring Edwards along? Definitely a better bowler than Gabriel unless hes done something to himself again.

I personally think Best is a decent enough # 3 but have always felt the best WI pace attack would have Roach, Rampaul and Edwards in there.

 

[hendrix]

Yeah I have a bit of a soft spot for Fidel. Good bowler with unflattering stats, IMO.

 

[Bahnz]

Fidel's stats tell a pretty accurate story about him. Perfectly acceptable strike-rate (58) but also an appaulling ER (close to 4). A decent wicket-taker who just offers too many 4 balls to be an effective spearhead. Would be an excellent 3rd seamer coming in behind an accurate and incisive new ball pair like Southee and Boult.

 

[WindieWeathers]

WW can you post your ratings of every member in each XI so far. Would love your opinions on both you guys and ours.

I'd do the same but since I've been working I've only caught around 3-4 hours so far. Have thankfully managed to catch Boult's 5fer, Taylor's 100 and 200 in the first game, and Bravo raising the bat for the double. Haven't felt too robbed of my cricket watching so far.

No problem!!..

NZ

Rutherford= a little rash to me!!..but can be dangerous if he gets going..i'd stick with him

Fultron= A weak link imo..has technical issues that he hasn't addressed from the england away series

Williamson= a good talent who always concerns me the longer he stays at the crease..needs to convert more 50s into 100s though

Taylor= having the time of his life right now..has batted very well indeed but the weakness of the attack he's facing leaves me wondering if this is just a one off?

Mccullum= got a good ton but i get the feeling he's on a downward curve?!!...might be totally wrong but he seems to be more cold than hot these days

Anderson= Not sure about him..on the face of it he looks tidy but he's finding ways to get himself out...his bowling is decent though.

Watling= an annoying little bugger..i could tell from the odi series we won in the caribbean last year that he'd be good for NZ..and he's in good form right now so you can't complain

Sodhi= i fear his batting more than his spin right now but he's still young so we'll see how he develops

Wagner= the weakest of the pacer attack imo..he's just a normal bowler who tries hard but no thrills.

Southee= he's stepped up big time over the last 12 months and is your best pacer by a margin imo

Boult= still learning and his performances in asia weren't that impressive but he's on fire now and that might take him to the next level.

WI

Powell= has the same average as Gayle did after 19 tests!!..difference is Powell has two more tons than Chris did, for me in terms of skill he's better than Darren Bravo but he needs to work on his mental game.

Edwards= he's not an opener but he's done very well here, averages around 40 in tests and after what happened in England to perform in these conditions is a very good surprise and he should be our regular number 3 now.

Darren Bravo= disappointed in the last test but that 218 in the first one was top class and he's clearly gonna be our biggest hope for the next ten years or so

Samuels= totally out of form..has probably been our best batsman for the last 12 months so i won't go overboard but he needs to get into gear sooner rather than later!!..when on form he's pure class though.

Chanderpaul= been fantastic for us..still can make runs but one gets the feeling next year will be his last

Deonarine= complete waste of space where batting is concerned!!..this may be his last series

Ramdin= has averaged 40 in the last year or so but doesn't contribute when we really need it imo!!..i'm keen to see another keeper emerge and get given a go to be honest

Sammy= i've said all i have to say about his fraud!!..there will be hell to pay if he's still captain and still in the team after this series

Best= waste of time and never was any good!!..time to let him go now

Gabriel= regressed since his debut in england and in the most part has had a nigtmare since his return to test cricket...needs to go and dominate at domestic level first before stepping up again..but needless to say his stock has fallen in recent months.

Shillingford= disappointed in the main..but i know these conditions are tough for him so i won't judge him too harshly.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Fidel went to India recently to play for the A-team!!..he bowled about four overs and went for nearly 40 runs...then got injured!!..i don't think he's on the agenda for us!!..time to promote Holder and Cummins methinks.

 

[Flem274*]

I'd rather our current side face spinners than pacemen. Williamson, Taylor, Anderson and Watling are very good against spin (hence good records in Asia) but then I prefer our openers against straight up and down pace over anything because they're not very good at manipulating the spinners around for ones and twos, despite being able to defend well and hit the gimmes. The pair feel the need to hit out too often. McCullum is about equal and could be good to everything but he's McCullum, so prior to this series he always did something dumb between 30 and 40. Hopefully as skipper with his first ton in years under his belt he can put those knocks to bed, but we'll see.

Would also keep Kirk Edwards in at opener if Gayle doesn't come back. Powell doesn't look like he's going to make it to me. Chanderpaul needs to bat at number four so he has the time to play a long innings. Bed Bravo in at five and let Samuels get through his slump at six.

 

[Flem274*]

Oh yeah, and the big test for both sides will be the series later this year. If we dick the Windies here and they pull the same stunt when we tour, it will just confirm the status quo: lower ranked teams suck away from home. The West Indies need that win though if this goes down the gurgler, but I'm not counting my chooks in this series yet.

 

[WindieWeathers]

I see why you'd be excited about this, but:
a) NZ's batsmen are much better at playing spin than they were 2 years ago. They've gone through tours against very good spin bowling sides on the subcontinent and have had moderate success. There's also the fact that Shillingford may be neutered by not being able to bowl his doosra, and Sunil Narine hasn't played enough recently to have any form going into it. It will be a challenge, but it's not insurmountable

To me they struggled a little in Bangledash!!..and in india Nz had as big a nightmare against spin as we did!!..Shilly is destructive at home and Narine would be there to keep the pressure on!!..although he can be destructive himself so ust having those two at you for long periods would certainly be a massive test..

b) I agree that Roach in particular is a very talented bowler, but over the past 2 years Southee and Boult have consistently been one of the best new ball attacks going around - they've run through England, India and Sri Lanka, all in unfavourable conditions for fast bowling. Roach has the potential to be excellent and Rampaul can be a consistent bowler but they haven't actually put together those numbers lately - through either fitness or non-selection. So I still think you'd have to say that the pace bowling battle is advantage NZ, for the time being.

Roach, Rampaul, Narine and Shillingford definitely has a nice look to it though.

Well you talk about the last two years but wasn't Roach/Rampaul and Southee/Boult all on the same pitch in the Caribbean only last year? and there was only one winner...Boult and Southee are very impressive!!..no doubt about it but imo Roach is the best of the bunch and when you have someone who is world class that kind of changes things.

 

[WindieWeathers]

I'd rather our current side face spinners than pacemen. Williamson, Taylor, Anderson and Watling are very good against spin (hence good records in Asia) but then I prefer our openers against straight up and down pace over anything because they're not very good at manipulating the spinners around for ones and twos, despite being able to defend well and hit the gimmes. The pair feel the need to hit out too often. McCullum is about equal and could be good to everything but he's McCullum, so prior to this series he always did something dumb between 30 and 40. Hopefully as skipper with his first ton in years under his belt he can put those knocks to bed, but we'll see.

Would also keep Kirk Edwards in at opener if Gayle doesn't come back. Powell doesn't look like he's going to make it to me. Chanderpaul needs to bat at number four so he has the time to play a long innings. Bed Bravo in at five and let Samuels get through his slump at six.

I'm not sure adding Anderson and Watling to that list is really accurate? i mean they were only against Bangledash right? the same side Powell got two tons in a single game against!!..

And speaking of Powell!!..he's got the shots!!..and he can look a million dollars when he gets going..but he's only 23 and just needs to settle down and learn how to concentrate for long spells. Darren Bravo didn't have more tons than Kieran age 23!!..so there's still hope yet.

For me Brathwaite is a cert to be our best opener for many years to come!!..and it's just gonna be a matter of who partners him...Barath? Powell? young chanderpaul when he matures? i hope we find the answer soon.

 

[hendrix]

Well you talk about the last two years but wasn't Roach/Rampaul and Southee/Boult all on the same pitch in the Caribbean only last year? and there was only one winner...Boult and Southee are very impressive!!..no doubt about it but imo Roach is the best of the bunch and when you have someone who is world class that kind of changes things.

Neither Boult nor Southee played in the first test. When they played in the second test, the each took similar figures to Roach.

But aside from that, you can't just ignore what's happened since then. Boult's averaged around 25, and Southee 22 for the last 18 months. Southee took a 7-for in India getting guys like Pujara, Kohli etc. And then followed that up with 5-fers against Sri Lanka (Sangakkarra, Jayawardene, Samaraweera etc) and then England (Trott, Bell, Root, Prior etc). All away from home in tough bowling conditions.

 

[Flem274*]

Powell looks woeful in our conditions. I'm not sure who or where he tonned up, so if he's taken one of the better fast bowling attacks to the cleaners then fair enough, but he doesn't really get forward, goes reaching, plays around his front pad etc. He has time but he needs to make some adjustments.

NZ can't really say "it's only Bangas" when we play them at home anymore, especially with their good spin attack, but it wasn't just who they were playing but how they were playing that impressed me. Both Anderson and Watling were very technically correct to the spinners which was good and surprising to see from inexperienced New Zealand batsmen. The West Indies honestly need to pitch the ball up to Anderson with a quick. Completely different game then.

I'm watching some Roach highlights atm on youtube and he would have been the right kind of bowler for these conditions because he bowls the right length. In a way being short and slim helps him a lot, because he can't fall into the bad length habits some taller guys do or he will get mowed. He can't bowl back of a length and look good but go wicketless and then whinge about how unlucky he was because if he bowls back of a length he will skid on nicely. It's a real shame he isn't out here because while injuries happen and test cricket is as much a test of your depth as it is your best side when the planets align, beating a side missing their two best makes the victory a bit less fun.

 

[straw man]

lower ranked teams suck away from home.

All teams at the moment barring SA suck away from home, pretty much. Occasional exceptions like England touring India but otherwise...

Edit: Hence why I'm hopeful that NZ at home can begin to resemble a 1980s-like fortress for us in the coming years, especially when our weak batting is padded out at home because players like Fulton and McCullum will score runs on home tracks. Away though, ekh, will be more of the same.

 

[kyear2]

Why in the world would you not bring Edwards along? Definitely a better bowler than Gabriel unless hes done something to himself again.

I personally think Best is a decent enough # 3 but have always felt the best WI pace attack would have Roach, Rampaul and Edwards in there.

Fidel was interviewed recently and said that he was told he wasn't selected because of his lack of cricket recently.

Make of that what you will.

 

[hendrix]

To me they struggled a little in Bangledash!!..and in india Nz had as big a nightmare against spin as we did!!..Shilly is destructive at home and Narine would be there to keep the pressure on!!..although he can be destructive himself so ust having those two at you for long periods would certainly be a massive test..

In India, yes, NZ struggled. But they learned from that and then managed to put up over 400 against the best spin bowler in the world (Rangana Herath) and win a test in SL.

I wouldn't say that they struggled in Bangladesh. They were never shot out for below par scores.