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Thread: Wasim - style over substance?

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    State Regular GuyFromLancs's Avatar
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    Wasim - style over substance?

    Whatever the answer is, still a great player - but with slightly under 4 wickets per match, and a higher proportion of tail-enders than some of his fellow greats in the quick department, is Wasim an ever-so-slight victory for style over substance?

    This isn't to say there isn't massive amounts of substance too. But to look at Wasim, and examine what he has in his locker, so to speak, you could be forgiven for imagining a sub-20 average bowler. But a data analysis show him to be statstically inferior to those who would challenge his implied supremacy.

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    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    What's your beef with Wasim?
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    Talisman of his side tbh
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    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    To answer the first post -- a little bit. He certainly had substance but he is made to be more than he was. "He could bowl 6 different balls an over!" So what?

    I dont really have emotional attachment to cricketers so I dont quite get it when other people do. It leads me to looking like I overly criticise many people's favourite players when in reality I just think they are rated over and above their pure contributions. I am perhaps a working class, pit face, dour cricketer and aesthetics mean little to me. No Wasim, Carl Hooper, David Gower, Mark Waugh near any of my favourite XIs.
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    State Regular GuyFromLancs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    What's your beef with Wasim?
    That his success took some of the limelight off Heath Davis
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    International Debutant Black_Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    To answer the first post -- a little bit. He certainly had substance but he is made to be more than he was. "He could bowl 6 different balls an over!" So what?

    I dont really have emotional attachment to cricketers so I dont quite get it when other people do. It leads me to looking like I overly criticise many people's favourite players when in reality I just think they are rated over and above their pure contributions. I am perhaps a working class, pit face, dour cricketer and aesthetics mean little to me. No Wasim, Carl Hooper, David Gower, Mark Waugh near any of my favourite XIs.
    I would tend to agree with you on most points.. While I do have an emotional attachment to certain players and Wasim is one of my personal favourites, but I to tend to critically analyse them and most of the time, my most favourite players such as Inzamam and Wasim Akram tend to fall short on 'substance'

    Going back to the original post, yes I would agree with that, although I am not sure if its so much about style over substance but more like the substance not matching up to the skill level.
    Yes he could bowl 6 different deliveries without much change to his action or wrist position, but does he have the career to show for that?
    Bowlers who could NOT do all that and did not possess that skill level have a better career to show.

    There were perhaps a few external factors that made a difference but at the end of the day, when you look back at a player's record, you don't look at all that, you look at their quantifiable achievements and Wasim if he is being honest with himself would acknowledge that he might have been the most skilled bowler of his time, but he was unable to use that to become the best bowler of his time.

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    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    More quality and substance than Flintoff
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    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    More quality and substance than Flintoff
    I don't think even GuyFromLancs would deny that. Not really the point though.
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    International Captain Himannv's Avatar
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    I agree that he didn't dominate as much as he should have and could perhaps have done better. Having said that, I'm not really bothered much about statistics as I don't feel they always capture the quality of the player. I haven't seen too many bowlers who are better than Wasim Akram and I think he's clearly one of the greatest of all time.
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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Furball's Avatar
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    On what planet does a bloke with over 400 Test wickets at an average of 23 fall short on 'substance'?

    He had an enormous box of tricks and is statistically is probably in the top 10 bowlers of all time when you look at the volume of wickets he took. What more are you looking for?
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    International Vice-Captain OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    On what planet does a bloke with over 400 Test wickets at an average of 23 fall short on 'substance'?

    He had an enormous box of tricks and is statistically is probably in the top 10 bowlers of all time when you look at the volume of wickets he took. What more are you looking for?

    Probably shouldve taken more wickets considering the amount he played, but he's obviously a great great bowler no one's denying that
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    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromLancs View Post
    Whatever the answer is, still a great player - but with slightly under 4 wickets per match, and a higher proportion of tail-enders than some of his fellow greats in the quick department, is Wasim an ever-so-slight victory for style over substance?

    This isn't to say there isn't massive amounts of substance too. But to look at Wasim, and examine what he has in his locker, so to speak, you could be forgiven for imagining a sub-20 average bowler. But a data analysis show him to be statstically inferior to those who would challenge his implied supremacy.

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    Fully agree with that, especially the part in bold.

  13. #13
    International Debutant salman85's Avatar
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    Both substance and style.

    He was a massive crowd puller however, and easily one of the most exciting crickets to have ever played the game.The enigma and spark around his ability does add a lot more to his career persona.He has a career record that rightly puts him amongst the greatest crickets to have played the game.However,yes, when you look at the astronomical talent that he had, he could have ended up heads and shoulders above all other fast bowlers, whereas as things stand, he is one of the best, not THE best.

    Obviously this is down to issues off the field, and the fact that Wasim indulged in the ever present web of groupings in Pakistan Cricket. I think it got to a point where his own self belief in his ability got the better of him occasionally, and thus shows career figures that could have been better had he focused on the game itself.

    A good thing that i've noticed about Wasim after retirement, is his constant help to young bowlers.He was responsible for Gul becoming a top drawer bowler a couple of years back, he transformed Ishant into a much better bowler when he coached KKR, played a role in Irfan Pathan bursting into the international arena, and also left a marked impression on Starc. Sure, this isn't really a lineup of fast bowlers who are the greatest in the world, but it does go on to show he has always been willing to pass on knowledge, and every time, there has been a marked improvement in the mentioned fast bowlers performance when he has been in Wasim's guidance.
    Last edited by salman85; 24-10-2013 at 08:48 AM.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Talisman of his side tbh
    Not for Lancashire

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    International Regular Beleg's Avatar
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    he played alongside some rank fieldsmen in his day and age. in many ways he was the picture of inconsistency but having said that, he could be, and was, about as devastating and mercurial as they come. the batsmen could never afford to relax because the next unplayable delivery was just around the corner
    smalishah84 likes this.

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