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Watson's All-Time-Great Ashes Contest

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Every team needs fielders to take catches too. It doesn't mean we call them allrounders.

Just my opinion. You're an allrounder if you bat and bowl.
Wicketkeeping is specialised thought. Everyone fields, and most can. Not everyone can wicket keep, but every team needs a WK. If a keeper can average 40 plus, he's an allrounder in my opinion.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Gilchrist does have a decent claim to be the best all rounder ever. Great batsman, great keeper. He wan't top ten in either though and Sober and Kallis brought three assets to the table and were ATG at two of them.
Interesting definition of ATG you have there if Sobers and Kallis were ATG's in 2 disciplines.
 

Eds

International Debutant
Interesting definition of ATG you have there if Sobers and Kallis were ATG's in 2 disciplines.
Going to assume he's still rolling with the idea that slip-catching should be included.

And yet, doesn't even consider Imran's captaincy which is quite obviously more important in a game of cricket.
 

The Battlers Prince

International Vice-Captain
Hobbs is an auto select of course, but gee I'd love to know just how great he was, ie. actually seeing him bat, that would be awesome!
 

watson

Banned



Australia's No.3: Donald Bradman

It is hardly a surprise that Donald Bradman will be batting at No.3 for Australia as his status as the greatest batsman of all time cannot be realistically challenged by any unbiased person. There are any number of statistics that I could dig up to prove that assertion, and indeed the following paragraph is as good as any;

In the 52 Tests he played, Bradman scored more than 25% of his team's runs (6996 out of 27,624 bat runs), more than 41% of the hundreds (29 out of 70) and averaged more than three times the combined average of the other batsmen. It can safely be said there won't be another like him again.

Don Bradman: stats analysis | Specials | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo
However, there are more fascinating aspects to the batsmanship of Bradman than mere statistics. The first obvious question that deserves discussion is: ‘How did he do it?’ Surely Bradman couldn’t have been more naturally talented than the likes of Stan McCabe or Walter Hammond? I think that the answer to that question is best explained by a gross understatement from his friend Arthur Morris – “He was able to concentrate so well...";

Talking about Bradman, Arthur Morris, the Australian opener who played with him, said: "He could never figure out how someone could get 60 or 70 and not get a hundred. He was able to concentrate so well, which kept him going and going and going." One look at the conversion rate corroborates exactly what Morris was talking about: Bradman scored 29 centuries in 52 Tests, and only 13 fifties. He also scored 12 double-centuries, which remains three more than the next best, and two triple-hundreds, which has been equalled by two batsmen.

Bradman's ratio of hundreds to fifties was a staggering 2.23. Among those who have scored at least 20 centuries, the second-best ratio is less than half that of Bradman's: India's Mohammad Azharuddin has 22 hundreds and 21 fifties, a ratio of slightly more than 1. Matthew Hayden is the only other batsman with more centuries than half-centuries.
The second obvious question to ask is: 'Would Bradman dominate other eras in the same way that he dominated his own?’ In other words, would he dwarf the likes of Ricky Ponting if he played his 52 Tests during the 1990s? Steve Waugh reckons so, and I would be inclined to agree;

Steve Waugh agreed that Bradman would have stood out in the modern game. "If he dominated his era, I think it's fair to say he'd dominate any era, including ours, to a similar degree. A genius is a genius. That's probably the most simple way you can put it."

Bradman would dominate any era | Australia Cricket News | ESPN Cricinfo
Hence, the inclusion of Bradman in the Australian side leaves me with a conundrum – I have to find at least two bowlers (to operate at either end of the wicket) who have a reasonable chance to dismiss Bradman early in his innings - for once he gets going there’s not much stopping him.
 
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Eds

International Debutant
I'm absolutely fascinated by Bradman. He's just an incomprehensible freak.

"At home at Shepherd St. he developed a game to while away the hours where he would repeatedly tap a golf ball with a cricket stump against a curved course of bricks supporting the family water tank. Using the house wall as one boundary on his off-side he managed to construct ‘Test’ matches in his head where he as the batsman would pit himself against the unpredictable balls ‘delivered’ by the tank stand. His constant application to this game, using the challenging tools that he’d limited himself, acutely developed his hand-to-eye co-ordination to a very high degree."

The Bradman Trail

This in particular is just so interesting. How much did this improve his co-ordination, reactions and muscle memory? If this was one of the main reasons for success then why can't he be 'replicated' again, and why hasn't it happened after all this time? By all accounts he was the model professional off the pitch, too. How much of his monstrous skill does that account for?
 
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The Battlers Prince

International Vice-Captain
I think it's amazing at how many stats SO many people look at when it comes to this guy. Looking for ways to make him seem more human. Haven't found any yet.
You're so right too monsieur Watson, have to get him out early to limit him. Good luck
 

watson

Banned


England's No.10: Alec Bedser

Alec Bedser wrote a fascinating essay about himself for ‘Cricket Choice’ in 1981. The sheer skill of his bowling made evident in the essay adds significant weight to his raw bowling figures;

Looking back I have to acknowledge that my career would have been the poorer had Bradman bowed out at Brisbane. The more I bowled to him the more I learned, and I would have been denied my most satisfying moment when I was able to produce at Adelaide in 1947 what Bradman sportingly described as the best ball he had ever received. That success was to boost my morale and status, and I was soon to take his wicket in five successive Test innings, including three by the same method. The Yorkshire writer JM Kilburn in his book ‘Cricket Decade’ wrote: ‘To suggest because of these conquests Bedser was Bradman’s master would be to approach the ridiculous, but the moments are not likely to be forgotten by either Bedser or Bradman.’

I would be the last to claim any so-called ‘mastery’ – an altogether too extravagant thought – but I still savour the compliment The Don paid to me when he said that in certain conditions I was the most difficult bowler he had ever faced. Bowler could ever wish for more.

The manner of these five dismissals, caught by my faithful ally Len Hutton at backward short leg, provoked endless discussion and speculation. One school of thought insisted that the sequence was evidence of Bradman’s decline – that it would never had happened in his earlier years. But such as assertion cannot be proved or disproved. All I can say is that the actual method of dismissal did not come about by accident. Also, as far as I know, I was the first to use it which meant that it was new to The Don, either before or after the war. I am still asked if I found a chink in a hitherto impenetrable armour, or whether it was ‘just one of those things.’

But there was a plan. It was based on an accurate full-length delivery on the off-stump, my knack of being able to make the ball swing in to the batsman late in flight, Bradman’s well practiced habit of searching for the first run with a push to mid-wicket, and the fact that he knew all about my inswinger and leg-cutter. The inswinger, I might add, was often despised in English cricket at the time. I agree with this opinion if bowled at the leg stump but the line of the off stuff is quite different.

Norman Yardley, who has succeeded Wally Hammond as captain, and I planned to have two forward short legs, instead of the usual one, in the hope of blocking a single to the mid-wicket area. If nothing else, we figured, it might prevent Bradman from getting off the mark with his customary speed, and perhaps upset the rhythm of his innings.

‘Even Bradman had Battles to Fight’
It is reassuring that we can confirm Bedser’s understated assessment of his own bowling by citing Bradman himself. Indeed Bradman’s candid admission that he ‘always had problems’ with Bedser’s inswinger is highly significant;

Bradman personally found Bedser a more difficult opponent than Tate in England, but qualified that he was at his prime as a batsman when he faced Tate, but in his declining years when he faced Bedser.

“Alec had a dangerous leg-cutter, which really was a fast leg-break”, Bradman observed. “He also had a brilliant in-swinger that dipped late. I always had problems with it.”

Bradman’s Best Ashes Teams, page 229
Note: Maurice Tate gripped the ball with the seam between his first and index fingers. This allowed him to swing the ball by using an exaggerated body action, but made it very difficult to bowl the leg-cutter. Consequently, Tate rarely bowled the leg-cutter, unlike Bedser who used it as a major weapon.

No batsman his master | Cricket Features | Wisden Cricket Monthly | ESPN Cricinfo


Therefore, Alec Bedser is primarily included in this Ashes team because his skillful control of the ball dismissed Bradman a total of 6 times. But that aside, his overall record against all Australian batsman (especially between 1950 and 1953) is highly impressive, and therefore the case for Bedser's inclusion is compelling, irrespective of Bradman’s supposed 'problems' with his bowling;

Versus AUS
Tests = 21
Wickets = 104
BBM = 14/99
Average = 27.49
Strike Rate = 67.9
5W = 7
10W = 2

Ashes Series: 1950-51
Tests (in Aus) = 5
Wickets = 30
Average = 16.06
Strike Rate = 52.0

Ashes Series: 1953
Tests (in Eng) = 5
Wickets = 39
Average = 17.48
Strike Rate = 40.7
 
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watson

Banned
Teams for far;

England XI
01. Jack Hobbs
02.
03.
04. Ken Barrington
05. Walter Hammond
06.
07. Alan Knott
08.
09.
10. Alec Bedser
11.

Australia XI
01. Bob Simpson
02.
03. Don Bradman
04. Greg Chappell
05. Allan Border
06.
07. Adam Gilchrist
08.
09.
10.
11.
 

watson

Banned
Love the choice of pic too, it's well known but never gets old
Note how far apart Bradman's hands are on the bat handle. Consequently, I would say that the power in his drives came mainly from the bottom hand. Also, his grip is in complete contrast to Trumper or Kippax who had both hands high up on the bat handle.
 
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bagapath

International Captain
Bedser is an excellent choice. With Freddie and Beefy he will complete all the varieties in a great pace attack.

And, what a great write up. Seriously guys, I am sick of assholes writing/ talking themselves up. Good old fashioned show of humility from a bonafide great - which Alec Bedser certainly was - always gives me a warm fuzzy post-coital feeling.
 

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
B-b-but Bradman only played against two countries and didn't have to play on many different pitches and smashed minnow SA and only scored on flat pitches on which Darren Gaga would average 100 and Bradman didn't face any good bowling average and would average 40 if he batted in this era against the likes of Mohammad Sami, Ajit Agarkar and Venkatapathy Raju and wasn't that good because his record is too good for me to comprehend so he was over rated.
Phew... So if anyone wanted to post anything of the sort, I believe I covered your points... Don't bother
 
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bagapath

International Captain
Bedser is sadly a rather overlooked hero... Magnificent cricketer
What do you mean by overlooked? He was knighted ffs. And was in bradman's all time XI. And was in post ww2 England XI selected by cmj in 2002. As recently as five years ago he took on Simon Hughes (?) the cricket reporter for independent, and publicly exchanged a mail or two on something they disagreed, which drew good support for bedser. He was never too far from the limelight. I think he lived and died as a star.
 

watson

Banned
What do you mean by overlooked? He was knighted ffs. And was in bradman's all time XI. And was in post ww2 England XI selected by cmj in 2002. As recently as five years ago he took on Simon Hughes (?) the cricket reporter for independent, and publicly exchanged a mail or two on something they disagreed, which drew good support for bedser. He was never too far from the limelight. I think he lived and died as a star.
I think he means 'overlooked' from the point of view of not being regularly picked for ATG teams. He's always up there all right, but generally makes way for Barnes, Larwood, Underwood, etc.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Going to assume he's still rolling with the idea that slip-catching should be included.

And yet, doesn't even consider Imran's captaincy which is quite obviously more important in a game of cricket.
I am, Sobers, Hammond, Chappell, Simpson, Kallis, McCabe, Mitchell, Barlow, Warne, Miller, Botham ect were that much more valuable to their teams because of their slip catching and in some instances their fielding was probably more important to their teams than their bowling. Slip catching is a specialist fielding position and another skill and advantage that the skilled practitioners bring to their teams. So yes when rating all rounders the ones that bring a third skill to the table would get the nod over the others with just batting and bowling in the All Rounder ratings. Do I rate great batsmen who are also great slip fielders as All Rounders, yes, but obviously not as highly as the pure batting or bowling All Rounders.

Regarding captaincy, I have previously stated that it's just too subjective. Is a great captain one with a great winning record, great man manager, great motivator, great tactician, a combination of all four? Lloyd and Richards had great records but not seen as great captains for various reasons, and they are some who are seen as great captains who had loosing records. In the end for me the success for captains depends on their teams and the talent, especially bowling talent at their disposal. Imran's record as captain if I remember correctly wasn't that spectacular and Hadlee for instance wasn't impressed by Imran's or Viv's captaincy, so no I don't rate captaincy as an All Rounder skill and I would argue that a great captain isn't obviously more important in the game of cricket.

To illustrate, in an ATG setting with great players every where in the team, where motivations isn't a factor and most of the bowlers set their own fields (as Marshall, Warne and I assume Lillee did as well) that Bradman's (or in my team Hutton's) role as captain in the team is not as critical as the guys standing behind the batsmen who take the catches. I would also add that in an ATG XI Sobers role in the slips may be more crucial to the teams success than his bowling, but that's just my opinion.

Back on topic, I see Watson kept to his promise to delay the naming of the England #3. :laugh:
 

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I think he means 'overlooked' from the point of view of not being regularly picked for ATG teams. He's always up there all right, but generally makes way for Barnes, Larwood, Underwood, etc.
Yeah I meant overlooked on CW not among the general public. My bad, should have worded it so
 

watson

Banned


England's No.8: Hedley Verity

Hedley Verity bowled more balls to Don Bradman in Tests than any other bowler – 932. And in return Bradman scored 401 runs against him, yet Bradman still made the following comments;

I think I knew all about Clarrie (Grimmett), but with Hedley I was never sure. You see, there was no breaking point with him.

Rock of Yorkshire | Specials | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo
I could never claim to have completely fathomed Hedley’s strategy, for it was never static or mechanical.
It is probably this mysterious element to Verity’s bowling that assisted him to dismiss Bradman more than any other Englishmen – 10 times in First Class cricket, including 8 in Tests.
Two of those dismissals came during Verity’s greatest Test at Lords in 1934. In that match he claimed 7 for 61, then 8 for 43 as England won by an innings. Verity’s performance was later rated by Bradman (2002) as the best bowling performance of all time in Ashes Test matches. For Bradman it even eclipsed Jim Laker’s 19 for 90 at Old Trafford in 1956. Critics have pointed out the wicket was damp, however;

Bradman put down Verity’s performance more to his own ability to change pace, spin, and direction than the state of the pitch.

'Bradman’s Best Ashes Teams', page 10.
Les Ames, England’s wicketkeeper at the time, echoed Bradman’s assessment;

The pitch was never really spiteful, but it certainly gave Verity some assistance. No doubt the Australians badly missed Bill Ponsford, who was unfit, for, with the ex¬ception of Woodfull, Bradman and McCabe, the others had had little or no ex¬perience of batting on such a pitch or against a bowler of Verity's class.

'It all came down to the follow-on' | Cricket Features | Australia in England | ESPN Cricinfo
The 1934 series eventually proved to be Verity’s best ever against Australia - 24 wickets at 24 runs a piece. Ironically, he had achieved the same average 2 years previously during the Bodyline series, dismissing Bradman twice during his 4 Tests.

And so, after nearly 8 years, Verity’s end of career bowling figures against Australia were;

Tests = 18
Wickets = 59
Average = 28.06
Strike Rate = 83.5
5W = 3
10W = 1


Verity was also a reasonable batsman who people confused for an “out of form Sutcliffe” when he was at the wicket. His straight bat and conservative style bought him 344 runs against Australia at an average of 18.10. He even opened batting once during the 1936/37 series and scored a creditable 19 and 17 while batting with Charlie Barnett. Their respective opening stands of 53 and 45 proved to be the two highest of the series for England.

Admittedly, Verity had a few Test series that were very ordinary by his usual high standards, and that 1936/37 series was one of them (10 wickets at 45.50). However, Verity is selected in this Ashes team because of his tenacity and the technical difficulties he posed to Bradman. Together, he and Alec Beder should prove extremely difficult for Bradman early in his innings.

Lastly, ‘Captain Verity’ fought and died during Britain’s campaign against the German army in Italy, 1943. In response to the news of his death Bradman wrote the following touching ‘appreciation’;

An Australian Appreciation

BY DON BRADMAN

The present war has already taken heavy toll of gallant men who, after faithfully serving their countries on the cricket field in peace-time, have laid down their lives for a greater cause. Of those who have fallen Hedley Verity was perhaps the most illustrious and from the Dominion of Australia I feel it my sad duty to join with cricketers of the Motherland in expressing sorrow that we shall not again see him on our playing fields.

It could truthfully be claimed that Hedley Verity was one of the greatest if not THE greatest left-hand bowler of all time. Most certainly he could lay just claim to that honour during the 1918-1939 period. No doubt his Yorkshire environment was of great asssistance for left-hand bowling seems to be in the blood of Yorkshiremen. It is one of their traditions and inalienable rights to possess the secrets of the art.

Although not a young man from a cricketing standpoint when the call came, Verity was little if any beyond the zenith of his powers. He was always such a keen student of the game, and his bowling was of such a type, that brains and experience played a greater part in his successes than natural genius.

Although opposed to him in many Tests, I could never claim to have completely fathomed his strategy, for it was never static nor mechanical.

Naturally he achieved his most notable successes when wickets were damp. Nobody privileged to witness that famous Test at Lord's in 1934 (least of all the Australian batsmen) will forget a performance to which even the statistics could not do justice. But it would be ungenerous to suggest that he needed assistance from the wicket, as his successful Australian tours will confirm. The ordinary left-hander who lacks the vicious unorthodox finger-spin of the Fleetwood-Smith variety, needs uncommon ability to achieve even moderate success in Australia, yet Verity was the foundation stone of England's bowling in both countries during this era.

Apart from his special department of the game, Verity could also claim to be a remarkably efficient fieldsman close to the wicket where safe hands and courage are greater attributes than agility. Add this to the fact that once he opened a Test match innings for England, not without success, and we have a fairly general picture of a really fine player.

Those of us who played against this swarthy, capless champion (I never remember having seen him wear a cap) probably appreciated his indomitable fighting spirit even more than his own colleagues. We knew, when war came, that he would plainly see his duty in the same way as he regarded it his duty to win cricket matches for Yorkshire no less than England.

During our association together I cannot recall having heard Verity utter a word of complaint or criticism. If reports of his final sacrifice be correct, and I believe they are, he maintained this example right to the end.

His life, his skill, his service all merited the highest honour, and with great sorrow I unhesitatingly pay humble tribute to his memory.

Wisden - Hedley Verity
 
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