Most batsmen have a better record at home than away, and there is nothing wrong in that, until or unless there is daylight between the two. If considered some of the modern day great players like Ponting (Home - 56.98/ Away - 46.40), Sangakara (Home - 63.28/ Away - 49.98) or Lara (Home - 58.65/ Away - 47.80), we will see that they have performed much better at home. Having said that those away averages are not bad ones at all (46, 49 and 47 respectively), and therefore I don't find much of an issue there. It just gets bad when that away avg gets down below 40 or something and at home it shines above 60 odd, may be. A real case of that (from modern day players) would be Mahela Jayawardhane (Home - 61.13/ Away - 37.36)...this looks bad to me, not only because there is a gap of 24, but also for the fact that the away avg of 37 (specially nowadays when you have the chance to play in Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, and he played 10 tests in these 2 countries) just stands nowhere. And he falls, for me, in the category of Home Giants.
Here are the biggest home giants of Indian cricket
1. Dilip Vengsarkar
Home - innings 80 - runs 3725 - avg 55.60
Away - innings 105 - runs 3143 - avg 32.74
2. Mohm. Azharuddin
Home - innings 66 - runs 3412 - avg 55.93
Away - innings 81 - runs 2803 - avg 36.40
3. Gundappa Viswanath
Home - innings 81 - runs 3502 - avg 47.32
Away - innings 74 - runs 2578 - avg 36.31
If you can think of some...
Jayawardene is a massive HTB... As soon as the ball even begins to think of moving a little bit sideways, he becomes pathetic.
But the fact remains that guys like Jayawardene and Sehwag who are pathetic in swinging conditions are absolute masters on dustbowls. They compensate effectively, especially considering the fact that Sri Lanka hardly ever go on tours outside Asia
Out of interest, what's Ponting's away record like if you take out India? His record was abysmal there until his last two series.
Ponting's away average of 46 paint him as someone who was good but not great overseas batsman, which is quite unfair.... I think he averages 45+ in every country apart from England and India, and even then it's just his first two awful series in India which drag his average way down.
On the other side of the coin Kenny Barrington averaged 50 at home and 69 away - probs more to do with the wickets he played on here than anything else
Yeah, Mahela kinda sucks away from home, but he has played some good knocks in Australia from what I've seen, and he is the best player of spin SL so that counts for something.
Rahul Dravid is a rarity for India, average of 51 at home and 53 away
Yes, this is an important point...but it is generally considered more glorious to perform under the alien conditions, having said that, this also has to be noted that pitches in West Indies or even for that matter Australia are not lively as they were say few decades ago...
Originally Posted by OverratedSanity
here just adding one thing to the ongoing discussion...
Mohinder Amarnath, a largely forgotten name (and forgotten performances) of Indian cricket during the 70's and 80's went to Pakistan, Australia and West Indies (arguably when some of these teams had their all time best bowling line ups) and had put up amazing performances, 8 matches in Australia, 668 runs at an average of 55.67, 11 matches in Pakistan, 856 runs at an average of 57.07 and 9 matches in West Indies, 877 runs at an average of 54.81. The guy was dropped mindlessly many a times (sometimes, may be, they were not due to cricketing reasons), and fought his way back several occasions, in fact he became the come back man of Indian cricket. In a career spanning 2 decades he could play only about 30 test matches in India. Yes, in India his performance was not great (avg around 30) but he never got a fair go, and was dropped every now and then. He was probably the best batsman India has ever produced when it comes to facing the real fast and fierce bowling, (I have the name of Mr. Gavaskar in my mind) and he achieved it by his technique, guts, determination and courage.
Talking about him David Boon said, "Concede didn't seem to be in his vocabulary". In his book "Idols", Indian legend and compatriot Sunil Gavaskar described Mohinder Amarnath as the finest batsman in the world. Imran Khan regarded Mohinder so highly that in his book "All Round View" he went on record to say that in the 1982-83 season, Mohinder was quite simply the best batsman in the world. Imran further went on to state that Mohinder should have played non-stop for India right from his debut in 1969 to the time he retired. Gideon Haigh writing in The Age says: "In an era replete with fast bowling and unrestricted in use of the bouncer, he never stopped hooking - despite many incentives to do so. He received a hairline fracture of the skull from Richard Hadlee, was knocked unconscious by Imran Khan, had teeth knocked out by Malcolm Marshall and was hit in the jaw so painfully by Jeff Thomson in Perth that he could eat only ice cream for lunch. 'What separated Jimmy from the others,' Michael Holding said, 'was his great ability to withstand pain . . . A fast bowler knows when a batsman is in pain. But Jimmy would stand up and continue.' "
Recently saw a post in here where Mohinder was not even given a chance in the 2nd best ATG side of India, where Azharuddin, Laxman and even Vengsarkar got their chances...unbelievable...
Mohinder Amarnath, for me, a certainty for the best All Time Indian Squad (specially if it is playing abroad).
Rahul Dravid, Sunil Gavaskar, Sachin Tendulkar and Mohinder Amarnath - they all average more than 50 away from home and they all have better away average than home. Gavaskar and Mohinder would count more to me though, since they had tougher bowling sides to face, also didn't have the delightful opportunity of playing Bangladesh...
Originally Posted by Maximas
Arguable but I'd say the opposite... The variety of fast bowlers Tendulkar and Dravid faced in the 90s( especially Tendulkar since he was there for the entire decade) was quite amazing. Plus there's the small matter of arguably the two greatest spinners ever. There was no one even comparable to Murali and Warne's level in Gavaskar's time imo
Originally Posted by sumantra
The minnow argument doesn't hold much weight imo because if you consider the 90s Bangladesh weren't even there and Zimbabwe were definitely not minnows . The fact that Tendulkar's average was close to 60 after facing those amazing fast bowler's all throughout the 90s is an achievement which is quite overlooked
Yeah but the more I think about it the more unfair it seems... It's as if home performances don't hold any weight whatsoever. Imagine if batsmen started having the same mentality " Oh I'm not going to perform today... These Indian roads... Pshhh, I'll just throw my wicket away. Obviously the only runs that matter have to be made away from home. I want to be remembered an ATG, bring on the greentops"
Originally Posted by sumantra
It's just wrong. Good performances overseas should be given importance, yes, but if you can't play on your own home turf, it's as big a deficiency as being a Sehwag. Which is why, as wonderful as Amarnath was, ATG India XI? not for me
Great, You have made lots of points
Originally Posted by OverratedSanity
No.1: Regarding variety of bowling attacks, well on the one hand we have Marshall, Holding, Lilee, Garner, Roberts, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Thompson, Croft, on the other Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Mcgrath, Ambrose, Walsh, Pollock, Bishop, Lee, Shoaib may be Gillespie as well (may be few others I am forgetting), well, for me the first lot seems to be more stronger, you might have a different take on that...and there are lots others to consider, like equipments, quality of bats, limitless bouncers, conditions of the outfield...yes, agreed that a spinner of caliber of Warne or Murali was missing...
No. 2: Regarding minor opponents: This is an argument that I have seen many times in cricket chat, frankly, there is nothing wrong in scoring big against these sides when you have the opportunity. Having said that it can't be denied that Tendulkar's away average would come down to 51.53 from 54.75 if you just leave aside those 7 tests he played in Bangladesh. And the same probably would happen to many others as well. Again, it's no fault of theirs, I just brought the point to mention that Gavaskar or Mohinder faced more tougher conditions, and their runs came under more challenging circumstances, for example, out of the 39 away tests that Mohinder played, 28 of them he played in either Pakistan or Australia or West Indies, and the time was the 70's and 80's. and he averaged 57, 55 and 54 in these 3 countries respectively . In the early 80's in West Indies in 5 test series his scores were 29, 40, 58, 117, 13, 91, 80, 54 and 116 (598 runs/ avg 66.44). And the bowlers were? Marshall, Garner, Holding, Roberts...The series before that in Pakistan, about which wikipedia says, "This series saw Imran Khan at his lethal best, supported by the canny Sarfraz Nawaz. In match after match India crumbled against the fiery pace of Pakistan, losing the first three tests 3-0 and barely managing a draw in the next two matches (one match abandoned due to rain and another due to pitch invasion). Imran Khan who took 40 wickets in the series was jointly awarded "Man of the Series" with Mohinder Amarnath. The catastrophic series for India hastened the end of the career of master batsman Gundappa Viswanath. Mohinder Amarnath was the sole saving grace for the Indian batting line-up for the series as a whole". In that series his scores were 109*, 05, 03, 22, 78, 61, 64, 120, 19 and 103* (584 runs/ avg 73.00)
just to chill up the proceedings little bit, let me add Rahul Dravid in this, the man has a great overseas record, but his average in Australia is 41 and in South Africa 29 (the best 2 bowling sides of his time), for me Mohinder's away performance should definitely be rated higher than his .
No. 3: Regarding Mohinder being in the best team: It's your team mate, you can pick whoever you want, but what you seem to suggest in your argument is that since Mohinder was not much good in home soil, you would not take him in your side, will you take someone who is superb at home but very ordinary outside? many Indian batsmen who fluently get selected in these best sides, seem to be of that category. I had said previously because I had been through a selected second all time best Indian squad posted in cricket chat which did not have Mohinder, but had Vengsarkar, Azharuddin and Laxman, for me, that's really unjust. I have no doubt that a good player must have performances all over, be it home or away, frankly, Mohinder never had a fair chance in India, he was always dropped for whatever reasons, but he came back several time, rather he forced a comeback...and he came back by performing havoc in Indian Domestic Cricket (which is played in India)...but ok, let's not go there, let's accept that whatever he got at home was enough, and his average of 30 odd at home clearly suggest that he wasn't good at home soil. Then the question is whom will you take in your 1st or 2nd all time best side? Guess one answer is have both the options open, keep Mohinder when you are playing away, and keep Azhar or Vengsarkar for home. That would probably be the best way of going about it (since neither Vengsarkar/ Azharuddin nor Mohinder had a solid all around record).But if I have to keep one (say, I have no option), I will keep Mohinder ahead of Azhar or Vengsarkar because someone who averages 30 at home and 52 away is a better batsman than someone who averages 56 at home and 32 away.