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Englands Foreigners

NasserFan207

International Vice-Captain
I suppose it depends in exactly how you view international sporting competition. I've always seen it as players representing their national identity rather than representing their place of residence so whether it not it reflects society or not isn't exactly the point for me. The reason I like true representative sport at all levels - whether it be State of Origin rugby league or Test cricket - is that players' loyalties cannot be bought or sold, or influenced by the greater facts of life. I think this has been greatly eroded throughout my life time to a point where I'm not quite sure what these international teams are really supposed to be representing.

I personally couldn't care less about the birthplace of players and I don't hold specific resentment towards those who played for two countries, but what grinds my gears is when players:
  • elect to play for their country of residence for the sake of economics, convenience or ease of selection despite the fact that they identify themselves as holding a different nationality, or would actively support another international cricket team ahead of their country of residence if they weren't personally involved
  • move to another country they have no real ties to in order to play domestic cricket and then turn up in the national setup

The second dot point in particular really grinds my gears; the idea of Grant Elliott packing his bags and leaving his role as a player on the cusp of the professional cricket setup in South Africa to go to New Zealand in his 20s, only to end up playing for New Zealand makes a complete mockery of the way I see international representation. I have absolutely no gripe with him moving to New Zealand in order to play domestic cricket but to represent the national team after that was a joke.

The problem with my dots points of course is that they're heavily based on individual loyalties and state of mind, meaning they're very hard to actually test or codify. And of course, as much as I'd like it to as a fan, international cricket does not exist in a utopian bubble, nor is it played by robots, so players are naturally going to do what's best for their careers, their personal lives and their families. You can't blame them for doing that and you can't blame the countries they move to for selecting them if they're eligible and the best available - you can't really blame anyone, but to me it's still definitely unfortunate.

I think one of the biggest problems international cricket is facing with this is the invisible cap we've placed on how good a player from say, Zimbabwe or Ireland, is allowed to get before he stops playing for them. If you're good enough to play for England then you're straight up not going to play for Zimbabwe or Ireland regardless of your passport status - if you're an Irishman then you'll literally actually get picked for England and if you're a Zimbabwean, even if you don't have a European passport, a player of that calibre will no doubt get offered a deal as an overseas county player which would be too good to refuse. This really sucks the life out of following a side like that because while previously Zimbabwe fans could live in hope that no matter how rubbish the side was and how dire the political situation in the country was, there was a small, small chance that the next Andy Flower or Heath Streak would just randomly emerge. The side could be rubbish but the scope for improvement was unlimited, and now the realistic situation is that the scope for improvement is very much capped. It makes me question whether there's any real point in having these sides at all sometimes, when they're legitimately better off producing a player of Malcolm Waller standard than Kyle Jarvis standard.
Pretty much my thoughts as well.

Technically Zimbabwe are in a better position than the Irish lads since they play tests (though its mostly like 5 games a year or something), however in reality doing anything in Zimbabwe is a tough ask. That country can be pretty brutal, and its no surprise that plenty of the (largely white) players would prefer a cushier life in London. Look at Jarvis. He reached a level where he could potentially 'escape', and he took it obviously for financial reasons.

The facts are in modern cricket, there are three (well four) really good places to be in as a cricketer (financially). IPL/T20 globetrotter, and playing for the Indian/Australian/English national side. For whatever reason the South Africans and Zimbabweans prefer England to Australia and India, probably due to their roots being there.
 
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Furball

Evil Scotsman
Pretty much my thoughts as well.

Technically Zimbabwe are in a better position than the Irish lads since they play tests (though its mostly like 5 games a year or something), however in reality doing anything in Zimbabwe is a tough ask. That country can be pretty brutal, and its no surprise that plenty of the (largely white) players would prefer a cushier life in London. Look at Jarvis. He reached a level where he could potentially 'escape', and he took it obviously for financial reasons.

The facts are in modern cricket, there are three (well four) really good places to be in as a cricketer (financially). IPL/T20 globetrotter, and playing for the Indian/Australian/English national side. For whatever reason the South Africans and Zimbabweans prefer England to Australia and India, probably due to their roots being there.
I think it's funny that when the IPL launched that one of the big fears was that T20 would kill the international game when in actual fact it's good old County Cricket that poses the biggest threat.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
How is it different GIMH taking Marcs' definition.
Well a player being groomed through a system is different to a fully developed one coming over to play, is all. Doesn't mean that should be the end of the argument but I don't think it's comparable.
 

brockley

International Captain
Lets see what Marc says GMIH.I am sure he is old enough and ugly enough to make a reply.
BTW don't get me started on the grooming system(just ask stumpy),there is over 80 foreigners on county contracts not counting those that play 2nd xl cricket.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
I would imagine the Saffers prefer not to play in Australia on account of it being full of Australians, to be honest.

This whole foreign player debate makes me laugh. We are a nation that has welcomed immigrants for decades. Some arbitrary thing like where someone happens to be born is irrelevant, if they want to play for England and legally can then welcome aboard.
 

brockley

International Captain
Lets scrap the Kolpak,eu and uk passports/agreements its descriminatory lets just include everyone enmasse,just like 1 big fun loving country.Imagine Dhoni,Vettori,Darren Bravo,Michael clarke all wearing the English lion.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Lets scrap the Kolpak,eu and uk passports/agreements its descriminatory lets just include everyone enmasse,just like 1 big fun loving country.Imagine Dhoni,Vettori,Darren Bravo,Michael clarke all wearing the English lion.
Nah, Bravo and Vettori aren't good enough thanks.

So are you saying that Stokes should play for New Zealand then? If so that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
 

Daemon

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The system is fine as it is. There is absolutely no way we should stop players from trying to aspire for bigger things or further their careers. These are real people with real goals and aspirations who're willing to uproot their lives just to pursue them. That is so much bigger than this nationality and patriotism bull****. **** that, it's 2013.

That said English fans obviously need to stop whinging and cop all the jokes that head their way.
 
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brockley

International Captain
No he came when he was 12 may.
Imagine the great Brian Lara with the 3 lions,Sachin Tendulker,Bradman.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
There's no problem with it if they meet eligibility rules. What is amusing, though, is how thin-skinned the Poms are whenever it's mentioned, even as a light hearted jape on here. I mean, if you want to pour a bucket of **** over players from other countries and the countries they play for (and English fans, like real human beings, all do it) then don't have a cry when someone raises this.
 

brockley

International Captain
Just having a lend of the while system,even Danish Kaneera talked about sitting out test cricket to play for England,anything is possible and the system permits it.Well i hope you get your worse nightmare county cricket flooded with foreigners.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Would have thought Cribb would love players being able to move around and play wherever they can get the best coin.

#freemarket
#IPAheretostay
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Technically Zimbabwe are in a better position than the Irish lads since they play tests (though its mostly like 5 games a year or something), however in reality doing anything in Zimbabwe is a tough ask. That country can be pretty brutal, and its no surprise that plenty of the (largely white) players would prefer a cushier life in London. Look at Jarvis. He reached a level where he could potentially 'escape', and he took it obviously for financial reasons.
Zimbabwe do have the Test cricket advantage but in many ways they're worse off than Ireland. Irish players have no incentive to stop playing for Ireland until they're good enough to play for England because they can still enjoy all the benefits of a county contract while playing for their country. If Zimbabweans with EU passports want to enjoy that sort of infrastructure and coaching, not to mention actually getting paid and living in a stable country for part of each year, they have to quit international cricket. They're incentivised to do their lot in at a much lower level of skill and achievement. There's also the curious case of Craig Ervine who has given up a Test ond ODI career with Zimbabwe to spend four years playing in Irish domestic cricket in order to qualify for them.
 

brockley

International Captain
Craig Irvine will probably trial at a county ny,do his time in English 2nd xl,thats what the 2ndxl is for over there.
I am suprised they haven't signed Jason Krevja on an EU visa,unless they consider him crap too.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Yeah check out the anti-globalisation bloke. :laugh:
Well I've said before that I view sport a lot differently. We all rightly criticise Ikki in the American politics thread for being too much of a idealogue and trying to apply one idealogy to every facet of life as if he's found the magic cure rather than examining the intricacies of each issue, so trying to paint me as some sort of hypocrite for not comparing apples and oranges is a bit harsh.

We're not sold the concept of international cricket as a market; we're sold it as players representing their national identities. I've always liked that concept as I think it adds some meaning to it. I don't see England v India as the "ECB v the BCCI" or "cricketers currently living in England v cricketers living in India"; I see it as two sets of players representing their primary national identities on a competitive sporting stage.

All this is why we actually have eligibility laws in the first place, but they don't really work all the time. I certainly don't blame the players or the selectors for acting in their own best interests and pushing these laws to the edge, but I do find the situation unfortunate and I think it cheapens the concept of an England v South Africa Test series for example if a few players on the England side would've been cheering on the opposition if they weren't personally involved or had chosen a different occupation. It's certainly not just an England issue though and it's not in any way their fault; in fact I applaud them for being (unless I'm much mistaken) the only country to actually have a self-imposed eligibility criteria harsher than the ICC.

All that said, I'd probably be less grumpy about it if we just scrapped eligibility criteria altogether and literally just let players play for whoever they damn well felt like. At least then I wouldn't be regularly squirming about international cricket being something other than what it was sold to us as.
 

Daemon

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All that said, I'd probably be less grumpy about it if we just scrapped eligibility criteria altogether and literally just let players play for whoever they damn well felt like. At least then I wouldn't be regularly squirming about international cricket being something other than what it was sold to us as.
So a guy that's talented enough to earn a six figure salary with a stable foreseeable future should stick to his ****ty underpaid job just because you squirm a little bit every time he puts on a jersey from a country that gave him another chance?

I mean I'm not trying to say that I'm happy with every single transfer that's happened in the recent past. Where you were born and stayed till you were 5 years old should have no impact on whether you can turn up for the country immediately or not (I think that's what Ronchi has done?). There should be a residency thing where you have to stay in the country for a while before you're eligible if you've been staying elsewhere for majority of your life, irregardless of your nationality. I don't know if there are such rules, but if there are then great.

It's not ideal and I understand why you think it sort of undermines the whole meaning of international cricket, but it's pretty unfair if we were to actively try and stop talented cricketers from going out of their way to further their careers. It's just one of those things we gotta compromise and live with.
 

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