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Thread: Englands Foreigners

  1. #166
    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    In the UK at least the terms "private school" & "public school" are pretty much synonymous; both meaning "fee paying".
    Its the dumbest thing the UK does ftr
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  2. #167
    International 12th Man SeamUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    In the UK at least the terms "private school" & "public school" are pretty much synonymous; both meaning "fee paying".

    Is it different in SA?
    Both schools are fee paying but 'private' schools are usually the most expensive and they don't follow the national (government) curriculum. So they write different exams to the government schools. Obviously there are loads of 'government or public schools' in South Africa, just from end of the scale to the other in terms of costs and facilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Pickup View Post
    Thanks for this - I have to admit that I wasn't aware of the breadth of sporting options available in state schools in South Africa (ludicrously, in the UK, the phrases "public school" and "private school" basically mean the same thing - we try to use "independent school" in most official capacities). Certainly, at least, this kind of opportunity is hardly available outside of the independent sector in the UK, and for any immigrants wishing to retain this kind of sporting experience between rugby and cricket, the independent sector is the only choice (football and hockey remain very much third sports at most UK independent schools - Winchester the notable exception). St Stithian's are regular tourists here and have regularly competed in the ESCA counties' festival at Taunton - this year, their U12 beat Wiltshire, Kent, Berkshire, Gloucs, Devon, Lancashire and Hampshire before Surrey salvaged some national pride by spoiling the last day of their tour!

    We have the same social split in terms of fast bowlers and batsmen: there's a clear stereotype that the Southern schools produce the batsmen, and the Northern mining towns produce the fast bowlers. Part of this was tied up in amateurs and professionals, but there's still a degree of significance - Lancashire, Yorkshire and Durham do seem to produce more than their fair share of seamers, whilst the fact that it rains all year probably doesn't help anyone who wants to learn how to bat...
    Yeah, independent is another name for our 'private schools'.

    Many of our smaller or lesser known private schools aren't really sporting orientated but mainly academic but in South Africa we've got boys schools that have tradition in producing mainly rugby and cricket players. Although water polo, hockey, tennis, squash, swimming, athletics, basketball are all offered. Football is only offered in these types of schools in Joburg, Durban & Pietermaritzburg.

    I think our problems are level of facilities in poorer areas whose government schools don't have the best sporting facilities because there are certainly 'public school' that have the sporting facilities. As I say the life blood of our cricket. I've always wondered if England had these sorts of schools but it seems not. So its a case of independent schools have the sporting options and facilities while the non independent don't have them. Interesting.

    For example by province our schools with sporting tradition -
    Boland - Paarl Boys, Paarl Gymnasium & Paul Roos
    WP: Bishops (private), Rondebosch, Wynberg, SACS
    EP: Grey High School, Woodridge (private), St Andrews Grahamstown (private)
    Border: Queens College, Selborne College, Dale College, Hudson Park
    KZN C: Durban High School, Westville, Kearsney College (Private), Glenwood, Northwood
    KZN I: Michaelhouse (private), St Charles College (private), Hilton College (private) & Maritzburg College
    FS: Grey College, St Andrews Bloemfontein
    Northerns: Pretoria Boys, Afrikaans Seuns Heurskool (Affies), Waterkloof, St Albans (private),
    Gauteng: King Edward School (KES), St Johns College (private), St Stithians (private), St Davids Inanda (private), Jeppe, Parktown Boys

    I read about that tour but wasn't sure what age group. Former SA cricketer Jimmy Cook attended that tour and this is what he had to say at a cricket dinner for one our major cricketing clubs Old Edwardians in Joburg.

    Jimmy Cook (pictured) was the guest speaker and his talk was humorous and light hearted and ideal for the occasion. He told us that our schools cricket was light years ahead of their counterparts in England. A St Stithians team toured UK and played County schoolboy teams and beat them with ease. He said that he had difficulty in explaining to the people over there that this team was from one school and not a representative team.

    But UK do push their kids earlier. He said that there were two 16 year olds playing for Glamorgan second team this season which would be very unusual in the Strikers set up. The current England batsman Josh Butler is another prime example of younger players being fast tracked.
    Was aware of that stereotype in with your fast bowlers. In a way does kind of make sense. In that fast bowling often requires a lot of hard work and determination on the fields of play and maybe the more well off don't have that 'push' factor. But then I suppose you could just say they had a 'natural gift' like a Dale Steyn here.
    Last edited by SeamUp; 01-10-2013 at 10:45 PM.

  3. #168
    International 12th Man SeamUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    What is Strauss' family background anyway? The bloke's the quintessential Tory boy Englishman.
    Posh !

    Mother is English. Father South African. Home language was English even though 'Afrikaans' surname. In South Africa many first language English people have 'Afrikaans' surnames. Its just the mix of the father and mother and what was decided their home language will be obviously Afrikaans speaking people marry English speaking people. No denying he has got Afrikaans roots though. One of his grandparents are somewhere up the family tree.
    Last edited by SeamUp; 01-10-2013 at 10:23 PM.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitWicket View Post
    Probably a bit like the laugh I have when Smith, Harris, McLaren et al. show up on South African scorecards. Come on, are we seriously talking about player selection based on whether or not they have the correct names?
    Look, it is what it is.

    I just find it funny because Afrikaaners have hated the English since the Boer War and possibly before and now players with Afrikaans in their blood are on the English team sheet. Like I say, not an attack and I'm no here saying they shouldn't be playing for England. I've just found it interesting how those with foreign connections are making it to the top in England cricket.

    You are aware that the 'English' have been coming to South Africa since the late 1700's ?
    Last edited by SeamUp; 01-10-2013 at 10:40 PM.


  5. #170
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Why does anyone care about this ffs? Everyone knows and has known for decades that the English climate, diet and general lack of sporting ability means they are inferior and incapable of producing sporting talent of any decent quality without looking abroad. It's hardly a secret. And you can't blame a first world country which is comparatively wealthy (or at least was when most of these purchases were made) for trying to make up for the inadequacy of its populace by buying some of the best overseas talent going around.
    As much as I suspect that the comment is slightly tongue in cheek, It I think there is an element of truth in this regarding attitudes. When I was coming through the system there was without a doubt an inferiority complex when comparing local players against Australians, West Indians and Saffers. They were invariably seen as inherently 'better' until they conclusively proved otherwise. That attitude never quite extended to Indians, Pakistanis and New Zealanders. The whisper of a WI quick, Aussie bat or SA allrounder -for example- would pique interest and cause the inferiority complex of coaches, peers and players to kick in. Half a season could go by before people realised they were nothing special.

    Your statement, I believe, is completely untrue. However, depressingly, I think a number of people at all levels in cricket still subscribe to it -- at least subconsciously. I hope it has diminished given the success of the England cricket team over the past decade and the relative decline of WI and Aus but I know it still exists to a certain extent.
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  6. #171
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Yeah I was taking the piss. It's interesting that attitude was around. I would suspect it isn't these days though, given how well England/ the ROE XI is doing.

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  7. #172
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Its the dumbest thing the UK does ftr


    Disagree

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  9. #174
    Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeamUp View Post
    I read about that tour but wasn't sure what age group. Former SA cricketer Jimmy Cook attended that tour and this is what he had to say at a cricket dinner for one our major cricketing clubs Old Edwardians in Joburg...
    Certainly no argument that Stithians gave us all a lot to think about this summer; I wish our boys still went down to Taunton at U12 - they were 10/10 this season and I'd love to have seen the match-up. Saying that, we still had some strange results this summer - my school side beat Bedford School comfortably... Bedford promptly thumped Northants.

    I wonder, though, what's different about what a prep school is doing and what we're doing as County Boards: we have punched far, far above our weight as a small county in the last few years but there is only a limited amount that we can do. What does a typical Prep fixture list look like? What format of games are played, and is there any club cricket?

    Extra question: what's the age range of a Grade 7 prep school side in August? Our boys will be mainly 12 with the odd 11 year old, and absolutely no 13s.
    Last edited by Neil Pickup; 02-10-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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  10. #175
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Pickup View Post
    Certainly no argument that Stithians gave us all a lot to think about this summer; I wish our boys still went down to Taunton at U12 - they were 10/10 this season and I'd love to have seen the match-up. Saying that, we still had some strange results this summer - my school side beat Bedford School comfortably... Bedford promptly thumped Northants.

    I wonder, though, what's different about what a prep school is doing and what we're doing as County Boards: we have punched far, far above our weight as a small county in the last few years but there is only a limited amount that we can do. What does a typical Prep fixture list look like? What format of games are played, and is there any club cricket?

    Extra question: what's the age range of a Grade 7 prep school side in August? Our boys will be mainly 12 with the odd 11 year old, and absolutely no 13s.
    I formerly coached a Prep school who had frequent battles with St. Stithian's and often won. I think we were better than most county age group teams. Each year group at the school was 42 boys. Incredibly rich but small talent pool.

    The big difference was that we ran 3-4 teams depending on age group. Every boy had to play. I didn't matter if you hated cricket or were terrible at it. You had to practice and there would be games for you each week. IIRC, we had practice 4 days a week and games on 2 days a week during cricket season.

    As for Prep school schedules, we had short games midweek against the local schools - they were seldom competitive but got the boys out of their privileged environment and then at weekends played against the top Prep schools from across the nearby provinces in long games.

    The amazing results from 40 or so boys came from real passion for the game, the season wasn't too long so they didn't get burnt out, everyone had to play so no talent was lost and, as talent develops differently, there was fluidity between the teams. Also have 4 coaches per year group didnt hurt. To take full advantage of resources you have to dedicate resources.

    On a side note, we rarely played against the Afrikaaner schools as they generally took the game more seriously and, as good as we were, they were far tougher for their age than our children.

    Recently I had 3-4 players from one 40 boy Prep school year group representing the Provincial Under 19s in the same team. I'm sure that other similar schools have had this as well.

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