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Thread: Englands Foreigners

  1. #151
    International 12th Man SeamUp's Avatar
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    It does seem an coincidence that 'foreign' players or players with a 'foreign connection' are the one's making it to the top ?

    I mean for example Dawid Malan is as thick an Afrikaans name and surname as there is. Afrikaaners don't exactly like 'Red Necks'.

    But eventhough he was born in England, it was to South African parents and he came back to school at an Afrikaans school called Paarl Boys High where came through the Boland system but yet been involved in England performance squads before.

    I'm not attacking here but Strauss and Pietersen are Afrikaans surnames so my old man and I always have a good laugh when we saw these Afrikaans surnames in an England batting line-up.
    Last edited by SeamUp; 01-10-2013 at 10:03 AM.

  2. #152
    Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    The important question that is hard to measure is, is there a bias towards foreign-born players in selection at and below international level? I cannot say how prevalent it is or why it happens but it certainly exists to some extent ... I am not saying that is the only bias in cricket selection from juniors on. One only needs to look at favourable treatment of those from cricketing families, going to the 'right school' and the importance of knowing people but this is there among them.
    That's a really interesting and thought-provoking point. I'd say part of this unequal representation is going to be for co-causal reasons; the Asian diaspora is going to have a massively larger number of children playing cricket than the Polish community (say) for cultural reasons - consequently there are more Asian professional cricketers than footballers, and more Polish footballers than cricketers. The counter to this also can hold true with the Asian community, as you have a number of Asian-dominated clubs who do not enter County/ECB cricket and therefore are not part of the establishment and system, so perhaps do not get players on the inside.

    South African immigrants, however, tend to predominantly belong to the upper social classes - those for whom the boarding or private school education is normal practice - and it's already been discussed at length why these groups are "over-represented" in cricket - exposure, finances, facilities, coaching and practice. It's not coincidental that most of the South Africans alluded to earlier in my youth squad are privately educated, and a great many of the naturalised South Africans in English cricket have come through the same way - through private education, with Millfield and Whitgift particularly active. These boys are going to be England-qualified, and they're not going to come over here unless they think they have a real chance of making it big - so of course you'll get an unequal representation come the final analysis. Our job as coaches and selectors is then to ensure that we look beyond a player's current levels and judge them in relation to their experience and training: in the same way that we must be careful to judge young state-school players to different standards to prep school boys, we mustn't be blinded by South African or West Indian roots.
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  3. #153
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    24 hours late here is the list for 1963

    Derbyshire
    DB Carr Germany
    HL Johnson Barbados

    Gloucestershire

    RC White South Africa
    A Dindar South Africa

    Hampshire

    RE Marshall West Indies
    DA Livingstone West Indies

    Kent

    SE Leary South Africa
    MC Cowdrey India

    Lancashire

    KJ Grieves Australia

    Leicestershire

    CC Inman Ceylon (Sri Lanka)
    S Jayasinghe Ceylon (Sri Lanka)

    Middlesex

    CD Drysborough Australia

    Northamptonshire

    D Ramsamooj West Indies

    Nottinghamshire

    C Forbes West Indies

    Somerset

    WE Alley Australia

    Surrey

    JL Cuthbertson India

    Sussex

    ER Dexter Italy
    DJ Foreman South Africa
    Nawab of Pataudi India

    Warwickshire

    RE Hitchcock New Zealand
    K Ibadulla Pakistan
    RV Webster West Indies
    JA Jameson India

    Worcestershire

    RGA Headley West Indies

    Essex, Glamorgan and, of course, Yorkshire had no players born overseas

    Of those Carr, Cowdrey, Dexter and Jameson played Tests for England

    Marshall, Headley and Ibadulla played a handful of Tests for their country

    Of the "foreigners" only Pataudi had a significant Test career

    All of them, I'm reasonably confident but cba to check, spent their whole county career in the same place

  4. #154
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brockley View Post
    Goughy the problem is the Counties,ECB tightened policy,the Counties import overseas players rather than develop there own talent.
    Don't care what Marc's response is,finished with the conversation.
    Well Neil proved your claims as wrong anyway.
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  5. #155
    International 12th Man SeamUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Pickup View Post
    That's a really interesting and thought-provoking point. I'd say part of this unequal representation is going to be for co-causal reasons; the Asian diaspora is going to have a massively larger number of children playing cricket than the Polish community (say) for cultural reasons - consequently there are more Asian professional cricketers than footballers, and more Polish footballers than cricketers. The counter to this also can hold true with the Asian community, as you have a number of Asian-dominated clubs who do not enter County/ECB cricket and therefore are not part of the establishment and system, so perhaps do not get players on the inside.

    South African immigrants, however, tend to predominantly belong to the upper social classes - those for whom the boarding or private school education is normal practice - and it's already been discussed at length why these groups are "over-represented" in cricket - exposure, finances, facilities, coaching and practice. It's not coincidental that most of the South Africans alluded to earlier in my youth squad are privately educated, and a great many of the naturalised South Africans in English cricket have come through the same way - through private education, with Millfield and Whitgift particularly active. These boys are going to be England-qualified, and they're not going to come over here unless they think they have a real chance of making it big - so of course you'll get an unequal representation come the final analysis. Our job as coaches and selectors is then to ensure that we look beyond a player's current levels and judge them in relation to their experience and training: in the same way that we must be careful to judge young state-school players to different standards to prep school boys, we mustn't be blinded by South African or West Indian roots.
    Really enjoyed your viewpoint here mate.

    Here is something interesting though with regards to the schooling system in South Africa and 'class status'. Recently Kyle Abbott and Dean Elgar were the first privately schooled players to debut in test cricket for South Africa since David Terbrugge of St Stithians in 1998. Since re-admission only Herschelle Gibbs (Bishops), Brett Schultz (Kingswood), Mark Rushmere (Woodridge), Dave Richardson (St Patrick's Marist), Meryck Pringle (Kingswood), Adrian Kuiper (Bishops) & Andrew Hudson (Kearsney) went to private high schools. Before isolation and during there were other schools like Michaelhouse (Herby Taylor & Henry Fotheringham) Hilton (Waite & Procter), St Johns (Bruce Mitchell, Clive Rice) produced players.

    In South Africa, cricket isn't really considered a posh sport or anything as we have plenty of high level boarding & day-boy boys schools who are actually public schools who have good facilities and good professional coaching. These schools are the life blood of our cricket. You will find the majority of our test players went to these schools. The main one's being Rondebosch (HD Ackerman, G.Kirsten, Commins, Trott), SACS (P.Kirsten), Wynberg (Kallis, Lamb, Le Roux), Grey PE (G. Pollock, P.Pollock, Botha, Callaghan, Parnell, Faulkner), Selborne (Boucher), Queens (Greig, Cullinan, McEwan, Kemp) Dale College (Hylton Ackerman, Ntini) Grey Bloem (Wessels, Cronje, Boje, McLaren, van Zyl, Dippenaar), DHS (Goddard, Richards, Irvine, Tayfield, Amla, Snell, Klusener), Maritzburg College (McGlew, Lindsay, Rhodes, Pietersen, Miller),Northwood (S.Pollock, R.Smith) Pretoria Boys (Barlow), KES (The McKeznie's, The Bacher's, G.Smith) Affies (Rudolph, AB de Villiers, du Plessis, Wagner) etc

    A list here: List of SA Test Cricketers and the Schools they attended | School Sports News

    In fact recently there was complaints that boys who went to the private schools were taking things to easily as they had money and didn't have to work hard for what they wanted. That was the reasoning behind them not producing SA cricketers but interesting quite a number of our current SA u19 players are attending private schools.

    There is also a thought that these private schools and expensive public schools Imentioned don't really produce that many fast bowlers. For example Donald, Fanie de Villiers, Steyn, Morkel, Philander, de Lange didn't go to any of them. Different case with our batsmen.

    I mean I look at a number of the current players going to England from SA a number went to private schools...

    Craig Kieswetter & Chris Cooke (Bishops)
    Nick Compton (Hilton)
    Wayne Madsen (Kearsney)
    Dale Benkenstein (Michaelhouse)
    Michael Lumb, Stephen Moore & Greg Smith along with Grant Elliott for NZL (St Stithians)
    Tom Curran (Hilton)
    Rikki Wessels (Woodridge)

    Others at high level public schools like Trott & Pietersen

    Keaton Jennings (KES)
    Michael Richardson (Rondebosch)
    Jade Dernbach, Jason Roy & Stuart Meaker (Glenwood)
    Gareth Roderick & Neil Dexter (Northwood)
    Dawid Malan (Paarl Boys)
    Last edited by SeamUp; 01-10-2013 at 11:30 AM.

  6. #156
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeamUp View Post
    I'm not attacking here but Strauss and Pietersen are Afrikaans surnames.
    The Strauss name originates from Prussia. Pietersen is undoubtedly an Afrikaans name, however.

  7. #157
    International 12th Man SeamUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    The Strauss name originates from Prussia. Pietersen is undoubtedly an Afrikaans name, however.
    Its German descent. In South Africa Afrikaaners are (Dutch, German and French descent) although a number of German and French Hugenot settlers became English speaking in South Africa as they settled in English areas like Port Elizabeth, East London , Durban & Pietermaritzburg.

    But 99.99% of Strauss' in South Africa have Afrikaans in their blood. Just look at our rugby scene which is filled with Afrikaans Strauss' (Adriaan Strauss, Andries Strauss and in the past Tiaan Strauss who went on to play rugby for Australia).
    Last edited by SeamUp; 01-10-2013 at 11:16 AM.

  8. #158
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Fair dos.

  9. #159
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    Couldn't be bothered Marc,if you cannot accept there are a lot of foreigners in county cricket then stay blind i guess.We all know whats the case.
    Of a list i have there are 27 south Africans,11 irish,14 Aussies,6 West Indians.
    This will be added to haven't included Jarvis or those playing County 2nds playing for contracts,but there is a lot of Saffies,Scots and Irish playing 2nd xl cricket.
    Gather there will be more when India don't tour S africa and decimate their system.Contracts will be cut,and those who are contracted will have to take large pay cuts.

  10. #160
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeamUp View Post
    Really enjoyed your viewpoint here mate.

    Here is something interesting though with regards to the schooling system in South Africa and 'class status'. Recently Kyle Abbott and Dean Elgar were the first privately schooled players to debut in test cricket for South Africa since David Terbrugge of St Stithians in 1998. Since re-admission only Herschelle Gibbs (Bishops), Brett Schultz (Kingswood), Mark Rushmere (Woodridge), Dave Richardson (St Patrick's Marist), Meryck Pringle (Kingswood), Adrian Kuiper (Bishops) & Andrew Hudson (Kearsney) went to private high schools. Before isolation and during there were other schools like Michaelhouse (Herby Taylor & Henry Fotheringham) Hilton (Waite & Procter), St Johns (Bruce Mitchell, Clive Rice) produced players.

    In South Africa, cricket isn't really considered a posh sport or anything as we have plenty of high level boarding & day-boy boys schools who are actually public schools who have good facilities and good professional coaching. These schools are the life blood of our cricket. You will find the majority of our test players went to these schools. The main one's being Rondebosch (HD Ackerman, G.Kirsten, Commins, Trott), SACS (P.Kirsten), Wynberg (Kallis, Lamb, Le Roux), Grey PE (G. Pollock, P.Pollock, Botha, Callaghan, Parnell, Faulkner), Selborne (Boucher), Queens (Greig, Cullinan, McEwan, Kemp) Dale College (Hylton Ackerman, Ntini) Grey Bloem (Wessels, Cronje, Boje, McLaren, van Zyl, Dippenaar), DHS (Goddard, Richards, Irvine, Tayfield, Amla, Snell, Klusener), Maritzburg College (McGlew, Lindsay, Rhodes, Pietersen, Miller),Northwood (S.Pollock, R.Smith) Pretoria Boys (Barlow), KES (The McKeznie's, The Bacher's, G.Smith) Affies (Rudolph, AB de Villiers, du Plessis, Wagner) etc

    A list here: List of SA Test Cricketers and the Schools they attended | School Sports News

    In fact recently there was complaints that boys who went to the private schools were taking things to easily as they had money and didn't have to work hard for what they wanted. That was the reasoning behind them not producing SA cricketers but interesting quite a number of our current SA u19 players are attending private schools.

    There is also a thought that these private schools and expensive public schools Imentioned don't really produce that many fast bowlers. For example Donald, Fanie de Villiers, Steyn, Morkel, Philander, de Lange didn't go to any of them. Different case with our batsmen.

    I mean I look at a number of the current players going to England from SA a number went to private schools...

    Craig Kieswetter & Chris Cooke (Bishops)
    Nick Compton (Hilton)
    Wayne Madsen (Kearsney)
    Dale Benkenstein (Michaelhouse)
    Michael Lumb, Stephen Moore & Greg Smith along with Grant Elliott for NZL (St Stithians)
    Tom Curran (Hilton)
    Rikki Wessels (Woodridge)

    Others at high level public schools like Trott & Pietersen

    Keaton Jennings (KES)
    Michael Richardson (Rondebosch)
    Jade Dernbach, Jason Roy & Stuart Meaker (Glenwood)
    Gareth Roderick & Neil Dexter (Northwood)
    Dawid Malan (Paarl Boys)
    In the UK at least the terms "private school" & "public school" are pretty much synonymous; both meaning "fee paying".

    Is it different in SA?
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  11. #161
    Cricket Spectator HitWicket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeamUp View Post
    I'm not attacking here but Strauss and Pietersen are Afrikaans surnames so my old man and I always have a good laugh when we saw these Afrikaans surnames in an England batting line-up.
    Probably a bit like the laugh I have when Smith, Harris, McLaren et al. show up on South African scorecards. Come on, are we seriously talking about player selection based on whether or not they have the correct names?

  12. #162
    Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeamUp View Post
    Here is something interesting though with regards to the schooling system in South Africa and 'class status'. Recently Kyle Abbott and Dean Elgar were the first privately schooled players to debut in test cricket for South Africa since David Terbrugge of St Stithians in 1998. Since re-admission only Herschelle Gibbs (Bishops), Brett Schultz (Kingswood), Mark Rushmere (Woodridge), Dave Richardson (St Patrick's Marist), Meryck Pringle (Kingswood), Adrian Kuiper (Bishops) & Andrew Hudson (Kearsney) went to private high schools. Before isolation and during there were other schools like Michaelhouse (Herby Taylor & Henry Fotheringham) Hilton (Waite & Procter), St Johns (Bruce Mitchell, Clive Rice) produced players.

    In South Africa, cricket isn't really considered a posh sport or anything as we have plenty of high level boarding & day-boy boys schools who are actually public schools who have good facilities and good professional coaching. These schools are the life blood of our cricket. You will find the majority of our test players went to these schools. The main one's being Rondebosch (HD Ackerman, G.Kirsten, Commins, Trott), SACS (P.Kirsten), Wynberg (Kallis, Lamb, Le Roux), Grey PE (G. Pollock, P.Pollock, Botha, Callaghan, Parnell, Faulkner), Selborne (Boucher), Queens (Greig, Cullinan, McEwan, Kemp) Dale College (Hylton Ackerman, Ntini) Grey Bloem (Wessels, Cronje, Boje, McLaren, van Zyl, Dippenaar), DHS (Goddard, Richards, Irvine, Tayfield, Amla, Snell, Klusener), Maritzburg College (McGlew, Lindsay, Rhodes, Pietersen, Miller),Northwood (S.Pollock, R.Smith) Pretoria Boys (Barlow), KES (The McKeznie's, The Bacher's, G.Smith) Affies (Rudolph, AB de Villiers, du Plessis, Wagner) etc

    In fact recently there was complaints that boys who went to the private schools were taking things to easily as they had money and didn't have to work hard for what they wanted. That was the reasoning behind them not producing SA cricketers but interesting quite a number of our current SA u19 players are attending private schools. There is also a thought that these private schools and expensive public schools Imentioned don't really produce that many fast bowlers. For example Donald, Fanie de Villiers, Steyn, Morkel, Philander, de Lange didn't go to any of them. Different case with our batsmen.
    Thanks for this - I have to admit that I wasn't aware of the breadth of sporting options available in state schools in South Africa (ludicrously, in the UK, the phrases "public school" and "private school" basically mean the same thing - we try to use "independent school" in most official capacities). Certainly, at least, this kind of opportunity is hardly available outside of the independent sector in the UK, and for any immigrants wishing to retain this kind of sporting experience between rugby and cricket, the independent sector is the only choice (football and hockey remain very much third sports at most UK independent schools - Winchester the notable exception). St Stithian's are regular tourists here and have regularly competed in the ESCA counties' festival at Taunton - this year, their U12 beat Wiltshire, Kent, Berkshire, Gloucs, Devon, Lancashire and Hampshire before Surrey salvaged some national pride by spoiling the last day of their tour!

    We have the same social split in terms of fast bowlers and batsmen: there's a clear stereotype that the Southern schools produce the batsmen, and the Northern mining towns produce the fast bowlers. Part of this was tied up in amateurs and professionals, but there's still a degree of significance - Lancashire, Yorkshire and Durham do seem to produce more than their fair share of seamers, whilst the fact that it rains all year probably doesn't help anyone who wants to learn how to bat...

  13. #163
    Hall of Fame Member Furball's Avatar
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    What is Strauss' family background anyway? The bloke's the quintessential Tory boy Englishman.

  14. #164
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    What is Strauss' family background anyway? The bloke's the quintessential Tory boy Englishman.
    At least half of his family is English afaik.

    Presume the other half is standard white South African, though could be wrong.
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  15. #165
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Why does anyone care about this ffs? Everyone knows and has known for decades that the English climate, diet and general lack of sporting ability means they are inferior and incapable of producing sporting talent of any decent quality without looking abroad. It's hardly a secret. And you can't blame a first world country which is comparatively wealthy (or at least was when most of these purchases were made) for trying to make up for the inadequacy of its populace by buying some of the best overseas talent going around.
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