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View Poll Results: Best 2nd ATG XI side?

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  • South Africa

    0 0%
  • West Indies

    7 33.33%
  • Australia

    10 47.62%
  • Pakistan

    0 0%
  • England

    4 19.05%
  • India

    0 0%
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Thread: Which country has the best 2nd ATG XI side?

  1. #46
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    = stamina

    = skillful

    = good technique

    = good technique

    The above quotes are absolutes, not relative comparisons. If a bowler picks up regular wickets in the Test match arena, and has those three attributes then he is, by definition, a truly good bowler.

    Also, Hobbs had no problem judging Faulkner against Grimmett and Mailey (because he faced all three bowlers).If a leg spinner is mentioned in the same sentence as these two great bowlers, then by implication, he must also be great.
    Come now, you must admit that having the requisite skill and technique is not all that we look for here. You have to have delivered on the same, and our expectations are quite high. In that sense, if Faulkner was so capable, then it is a crime that his stats are what they are. I can only conclude that he under-performed.

    Again, with Tayfield in the side, and Kallis as the 5th bowler already, where is the value in having Faulkner over Taylor at 6?
    Last edited by harsh.ag; 09-09-2013 at 11:31 PM.
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  2. #47
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    Come now, you must admit that having the requisite skill and technique is not all that we look for here. You have to have delivered on the same, and our expectations are quite high. In that sense, if Faulkner was so capable, then it is a crime that his stats are what they are. I can only conclude that he under-performed.

    Again, with Tayfield in the side, and Kallis as the 5th bowler already, where is the value in having Faulkner over Taylor at 6?
    The value resides in that fact that a slight loss in batting depth is more than made up by the fact that the combination of Tayfield (off-spinner) and Faulkner (leg-spinner) bowling in tandem would most likely be a good one.

    In short, a more versatile bowling attack is preferred to a little extra batting depth. As Hobbs says;

    He always got runs, and used to bowl right through the innings.
    Also, what evidence is there that Faulkner's stat's are a 'crime'? His Batting Average (41) for the era seems quite good to me, as does his Bowling Average (27) and Strike Rate (55). After all, that other great allrounder, and near contemporary, Monty Noble averaged 30 with the bat, and 25 with the ball. His Strike Rate was 59.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  3. #48
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    The value resides in that fact that a slight loss in batting depth is more than made up by the fact that the combination of Tayfield (off-spinner) and Faulkner (leg-spinner) bowling in tandem would most likely be a good one.

    In short, a more versatile bowling attack is preferred to a little extra batting depth. As Hobbs says;

    Also, what evidence is there that Faulkner's stat's are a 'crime'? His Batting Average (41) for the era seems quite good to me, as does his Bowling Average (27) and Strike Rate (55). After all, that other great allrounder, and near contemporary, Monty Noble averaged 30 with the bat, and 25 with the ball. His Strike Rate was 59.
    His average of 40 is very good, and therefore he is a good selection for the number 6 spot, I agree. But his average hides that he wasn't a very gifted batsman at all, and was known more for his bowling. My view is just that Taylor is a better selection. There is also a reason that Monty Noble never makes the Aus 1st or 2nd XI. 'Crime' was a hyperbole, which is silly in hindsight. I only compromise on batting for the need of a fifth bowler, which is not required here.

  4. #49
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    His average of 40 is very good, and therefore he is a good selection for the number 6 spot, I agree. But his average hides that he wasn't a very gifted batsman at all, and was known more for his bowling. My view is just that Taylor is a better selection. There is also a reason that Monty Noble never makes the Aus 1st or 2nd XI. 'Crime' was a hyperbole, which is silly in hindsight. I only compromise on batting for the need of a fifth bowler, which is not required here.
    Well he couldn't be that ungifted. DoG gave Faulkner 745 points and an ATG ranking of 56. In comparison, Herbie Taylor scored 726 points and came in 67th.

    745 points also puts him on a par with Langer, Pietersen, Hussey and Mitchell. And ahead of Cowdrey, McCabe, Trumper, Crowe, Morris, and Ponsford. Not bad.


  5. #50
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Well he couldn't be that ungifted. DoG gave Faulkner 745 points and an ATG ranking of 56. In comparison, Herbie Taylor scored 726 points and came in 67th.

    745 points also puts him on a par with Langer, Pietersen, Hussey and Mitchell. And ahead of Cowdrey, McCabe, Trumper, Crowe, Morris, and Ponsford. Not bad.
    You just DoGed me!! Not fair But I maintain Taylor was a far superior batsman to Faulkner, and capable of magic like winning a contest against Sydney Barnes.

  6. #51
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    You just DoGed me!! Not fair But I maintain Taylor was a far superior batsman to Faulkner, and capable of magic like winning a contest against Sydney Barnes.
    Yes, Taylor did infuriate the heck out of Barnes. And was certainly a talented and great batsman.

  7. #52
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Remember that both Ratnayake's played for a minnow team with hardly any bowling support.
    But if they played the majority of their cricket together and they're as good as you say surely that is half an attack being good, which counters this?
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  8. #53
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    But if they played the majority of their cricket together and they're as good as you say surely that is half an attack being good, which counters this?
    probably 50 percent of the time together, but when they did never complemented each other. that may be down to the fact of poor captaincy from Duleep Mendis. On the other hand these guys complemented Asantha de Mel, Vinothan John etc vey well. And Vaas is the very same type of bowler as de Mel or John, may be tad quicker in his pomp. Sri Lanka boasted of a much better seam attack in mid 80s than today, and if not for Vaas mayhave been the best era of fast bowling too.
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  9. #54
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Additionally Rumesh loved to bowl on pitches with pace and bounce and did very well in England, Australia and in New Zealand. On the other hand wicket to wicket fastmeiums of Ravi was better suitedor bad wickets with up and down bounce. Ravis best bowling spells are in Sri Lanka and Pakistan. This maybe the reason for them not to do well as a pair and it was oly 10 test msthes thry plsyed together.

  10. #55
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    My first Aust side would be...

    - Trumper
    - Taylor
    - Bradman
    - G. Chappell
    - Miller
    - Harvey
    - Gilchrist
    - Warne
    - Lillee
    - O'Reilly
    - McGrath

  11. #56
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    My 2nd would be

    - Lawry
    - Simpson
    - Ponting
    - McCabe
    - S. Waugh
    - Border
    - Healy
    - Lindwall
    - Gregory
    - Spofforth
    - Grimmett

    COuld see the 2nd XI beating the 1st. Bradman always ****s things up though

  12. #57
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    My 2nd would be

    - Lawry
    - Simpson
    - Ponting
    - McCabe
    - S. Waugh
    - Border
    - Healy
    - Lindwall
    - Gregory
    - Spofforth
    - Grimmett

    Could see the 2nd XI beating the 1st. Bradman always ****s things up though
    Davidson instead of Gregory? And aside from personal reasons, why Harvey ahead of Ponting?

  13. #58
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Yeh, forgot Davo. He should replace either Spofforth or Gregory. Always miss one obvious one.

    Ponting and Harvey are equal in my eyes as batsmen and cricketers in general. Either is fine, but I'm a big fan of Harvey.

  14. #59
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    When you look at peoples' ATG Australian XIs there seems to be consistent disagreement as to who should open the batting. With England it's no problem, just throw in Hobbs and Hutton (or Sutcliffe if so inclined) and away you go. However, in more than a 100 years Australia does not have 2-3 stand out openers who pick themselves, and who I feel really comfortable with. Simpson. Lawry, Morris, Trumper, Hayden, Taylor, and Langer all bother me for some niggling reason that I don't understand.
    Last edited by watson; 11-09-2013 at 01:45 AM.
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  15. #60
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    When you look at peoples' ATG Australian XIs there seems to be consistent disagreement as to who should open the batting. With England it's no problem, just throw in Hobbs and Hutton (or Sutcliffe if so inclined) and away you go. However, in more than a 100 years Australia does not have 2-3 stand out openers who pick themselves, and who I feel really comfortable with. Simpson. Lawry, Morris, Trumper, Hayden, Taylor, and Langer all bother me for some niggling reason that I don't understand.
    Maybe we should just open with Border and Waugh (Steve) for the 1st XI :P Could be interesting. They would never get out.

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