View Poll Results: Best 2nd ATG XI side?

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  • South Africa

    0 0%
  • West Indies

    7 33.33%
  • Australia

    10 47.62%
  • Pakistan

    0 0%
  • England

    4 19.05%
  • India

    0 0%
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Thread: Which country has the best 2nd ATG XI side?

  1. #16
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    These are just mine ones, not based on CW, sorry!
    Fair enough, just wondering what the starting point was!
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  2. #17
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    A couple of teams I’ve come up with, excluding those selected by CW in the First XIs. Not that I necessarily agreed with each CW team, but using them as a base for exclusion. Firstly, Australia:

    Matthew Hayden
    Bob Simpson
    Ricky Ponting
    Neil Harvey
    Stan McCabe
    Steve Waugh
    Ian Healy
    Alan Davidson
    Ray Lindwall
    Clarrie Grimmett
    Fred Spofforth

    Waugh, Simpson and McCabe would share fifth bowling duties as there are only four specialist bowlers (but what a quartet!) – the trade-off for having the batting class of SR Waugh at six. One of the things that leaps out about this team is what an extraordinary fielding side it is. I suppose Michael Clarke should probably be at number 5, but I don't like picking teams without Stan McCabe.

    I reckon an England Second XI would also take some beating:

    WG Grace
    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Peter May
    Kevin Pietersen
    KS Ranjitsinjhi
    Tony Greig
    Les Ames
    Alec Bedser
    Hedley Verity
    Tom Richardson
    Brian Statham

    I struggled with choosing the all rounder (Rhodes, Woolley?) and the exact bowling combination (Lockwood, Tyson, Underwood and Snow all close) but am very happy with this combination.

    While I reckon a West Indian Second XI might look like this:

    Frank Worrell
    Desmond Haynes
    Rohan Kanhai
    Everton Weekes
    Shivnarine Chanderpaul
    Clive Lloyd
    Jeff Dujon
    Andy Roberts
    Wes Hall
    Lance Gibbs
    Courtney Walsh

    Like Australia, only four genuine bowlers with Worrell (who I’ve picked as an opener for balance) and Lloyd having to make up the support options, but it is a superb frontline quartet and despite a long tail, the batting line up is very powerful.

    Will have a think about some others if/when I get the chance.
    Last edited by The Sean; 09-09-2013 at 03:19 AM.

  3. #18
    International 12th Man SeamUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    Here you go. Pick the country with the best 2nd ATG XI side. Couldn't make viable ones for New Zealand and Sri Lanka (and nearly India)

    South Africa

    Bruce Mitchell
    Gary Kirsten (c)
    Hashim Amla
    AB De Villiers
    Daryll Cullinan
    Aubrey Faulkner
    Jock Cameron (w)
    Mike Procter
    Garth Le Roux
    Vernon Philander
    Neil Adcock

    Notes: I picked Garth Le Roux over Vincent van der Bijl because I wanted two genuine quick bowlers, and already had similar bowlers in Philander and Procter. Plus Le Roux bats a bit. Herbie Taylor is in my first XI. Faulkner to provide the spin option. Jock Cameron ahead of Mark Boucher. Anybody know a better bat than Cullinan?

    Which would you say is the strongest side. You are welcome to vote as per your own 2nd XIs as well
    [QUOTE=harsh.skm;3132848]My SA 1st XI is: Barry Richards | Graeme Smith (c) | Jacques Kallis | Graeme Pollock | Dudley Nourse | Herbie Taylor | John Waite (w) | Shaun Pollock | Hugh Tayfield | Dale Steyn | Allan Donald
    [QUOTE]

    If we're considering Vince van der Bijl & Garth Le Roux then Jimmy Cook, Henry Fotheringham, Peter Kirsten, Ken McEwan, Clive Rice, Alan Kourie, Stephen Jefferies and the likes can be considered. Basically mentioning the team for the 80's here once some of the first generation of legends were coming to the end of their careers. Obviously some would have played in the 70's if you consider Rice was chosen to tour Australia in 1970 (vd Bijl also).

    Two good pieces -

    Mark Nicholas - http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine...ry/578932.html

    Robin Jackman - http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/conte...ry/135562.html

    I'm not sure I would say Procter and Philander are similar in bowling style other than they both can hold a bat and both take wickets. Procter more erratic in search of wickets and bowled in-swing to right-handers. Not sure if that effects your decision making ?

    I suppose other options to consider -

    Batsmen: Jackie McGlew, Eric Rowan, Colin Bland, Lee Irvine, Herschelle Gibbs + (Cook, Fotheringham, P. Kirsten, McEwan)

    All-rounders: Trevor Goddard, Eddie Barlow (has to come very close to getting into an XI), Brian McMillan. (Clive Rice - one of my favourites - one of the best all-rounders to live)

    Keepers: Denis Lindsay & Mark Boucher

    Spin: Albert Vogler, Cyril Vincent, Paul Adams (Alan Kourie & Denys Hobson)

    Seam: Peter Heine, Peter Pollock, Fanie de Villiers, Makhaya Ntini (Vince Vd Bijl, Stephen Jefferies)
    Last edited by SeamUp; 09-09-2013 at 03:27 AM.

  4. #19
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    If we're considering Vince van der Bijl & Garth Le Roux then Jimmy Cook, Henry Fotheringham, Peter Kirsten, Ken McEwan, Clive Rice, Alan Kourie, Stephen Jefferies and the likes can be considered. Basically mentioning the team for the 80's here once some of the first generation of legends were coming to the end of their careers. Obviously some would have played in the 70's if you consider Rice was chosen to tour Australia in 1970 (vd Bijl also).

    I'm not sure I would say Procter and Philander are similar in bowling style other than they both can hold a bat and both take wickets. Procter more erratic in search of wickets and bowled in-swing to right-handers. Not sure if that effects your decision making ?

    I suppose other options to consider -

    Batsmen: Jackie McGlew, Eric Rowan, Colin Bland, Lee Irvine, Herschelle Gibbs + (Cook, Fotheringham, P. Kirsten, McEwan)

    All-rounders: Trevor Goddard, Eddie Barlow (has to come very close to getting into an XI), Brian McMillan. (Clive Rice - one of my favourites - one of the best all-rounders to live)

    Keepers: Denis Lindsay & Mark Boucher

    Spin: Albert Vogler, Cyril Vincent, Paul Adams (Alan Kourie & Denys Hobson)

    Seam: Peter Heine, Peter Pollock, Fanie de Villiers, Makhaya Ntini (Vince Vd Bijl, Stephen Jefferies)
    All the players in bold above were and are very strong contenders for the 2nd SA XI.

    When it comes to Clive Rice, it was between him and Aubrey Faulkner, and I couldn't fit him in, plus I needed a spin option, and I don't Paul Adams + Clive Rice is a poorer combo than Faulkner + Le Roux/van der Bijl. Lindsay and Boucher really give Cameron a tough fight and I would not mind replacing him with either of them. Trevor Goddard could get in ahead of Gary Kirsten maybe, but not in my book.

    Fanie de Villiers and Peter Pollock have legitimate claims to be in their, and so, let's say I have Neil Adcock and Mike Procter there for sure. Then pick two out of:

    Garth Le Roux
    Vernon Philander
    Vincent van der Bijl
    Peter Pollock
    Fannie de Villiers

    Tough choices. I went for the first two, as Le Roux is a quick guy and bats a bit and Philander is rocking it. I think Peter Pollock has a good case.
    Last edited by harsh.ag; 09-09-2013 at 03:32 AM.
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  5. #20
    International 12th Man SeamUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    All the players in bold above were and are very strong contenders for the 2nd SA XI.

    When it comes to Clive Rice, it was between him and Aubrey Faulkner, and I couldn't fit him in, plus I needed a spin option, and I don't Paul Adams + Clive Rice is a poorer combo than Faulkner + Le Roux/van der Bijl. Lindsay and Boucher really give Cameron a tough fight and I would not mind replacing him with either of them. Trevor Goddard could get in ahead of Gary Kirsten maybe, but not in my book.

    Fanie de Villiers and Peter Pollock have legitimate claims to be in their, and so, let's say I have Neil Adcock and Mike Procter there for sure. Then pick two out of:

    Garth Le Roux
    Vernon Philander
    Vincent van der Bijl
    Peter Pollock
    Fannie de Villiers

    Tough choices. I went for the first two, as Le Roux is a quick guy and bats a bit and Philander is rocking it. I think Peter Pollock has a good case.
    I like your selections and we all have our different choices and you have good reasoning behind your selections for balance purposes as well.

    Probably would find a place for Barlow somewhere in there though. Bruce or Gary struggling but its always tough.
    Last edited by SeamUp; 09-09-2013 at 03:50 AM.

  6. #21
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    The first proposed England team.....

    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Geoff Boycott
    Peter May
    David Gower
    Dennis Compton
    Tony Greig (c)
    Les Ames (w)
    John Snow
    Derek Underwood
    Bob Willis
    Alec Bedser

    ......would beat the second proposed England team.

    WG Grace
    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Peter May
    Kevin Pietersen
    KS Ranjitsinjhi
    Tony Greig
    Les Ames
    Alec Bedser
    Hedley Verity
    Tom Richardson
    Brian Statham

    Although I'd swap Underwood with Verity any day. Slightly better bowler and handy No.8 or 9 batsman

    (And as always IMO)
    Sunil Gavaskar – Len Hutton – Don Bradman – Garry Sobers – Viv Richards – Keith Miller – Imran Khan – Jock Cameron – Richie Benaud – Malcolm Marshall – Bill O’Reilly

  7. #22
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    West Indies probably have the best 2nd XI bowling attack. Aus probably the best batting.

    England have a decent combo of both batting and bowling
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  8. #23
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    The first proposed England team.....

    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Geoff Boycott
    Peter May
    David Gower
    Dennis Compton
    Tony Greig (c)
    Les Ames (w)
    John Snow
    Derek Underwood
    Bob Willis
    Alec Bedser

    ......would beat the second proposed England team.

    WG Grace
    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Peter May
    Kevin Pietersen
    KS Ranjitsinjhi
    Tony Greig
    Les Ames
    Alec Bedser
    Hedley Verity
    Tom Richardson
    Brian Statham

    Although I'd swap Underwood with Verity any day. Slightly better bowler and handy No.8 or 9 batsman

    (And as always IMO)
    Makes for an interesting discussion. Both teams select:

    Sutcliffe
    May
    Greig
    Ames
    Bedser

    I didn’t choose Compton because he made the CW First XI and was thus excluded. In my team he would have replaced Ranji, so excluding both of them, that leaves five players different. You’ve already said that you’d take Verity over Underwood, which means that you must consider the other four:

    Boycott
    Gower
    Snow
    Willis

    …to be far ahead of:

    Grace
    Pietersen
    Richardson
    Statham

    Needless to say I strongly disagree (obviously, given that I selected the second team!), but it would be great to hear your opinions.

  9. #24
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    Makes for an interesting discussion. Both teams select:

    Sutcliffe
    May
    Greig
    Ames
    Bedser

    I didn’t choose Compton because he made the CW First XI and was thus excluded. In my team he would have replaced Ranji, so excluding both of them, that leaves five players different. You’ve already said that you’d take Verity over Underwood, which means that you must consider the other four:

    Boycott
    Gower
    Snow
    Willis

    …to be far ahead of:

    Grace
    Pietersen
    Richardson
    Statham

    Needless to say I strongly disagree (obviously, given that I selected the second team!), but it would be great to hear your opinions.
    Grace V Boycott: In relative terms WG Grace is easily the greatest cricketer of his generation, and probably the second greatest cricketer of all time after Bradman. However, in absolute terms I don't that he can complete with such a superb technician as Boycott. Against a bowler like Garner he would not have the technique to score a significant amount of runs without prior training and practice. Likewise, Boycott would probably struggle on a substandard 1870s pitch, but the assumption made by most 'counter-factual' thinkers is that any hypothetical pitch would be at least be flat and reasonable.

    Gower V Pietersen: There is not much between these batsman as both would be attacking and unpredictable, although Gower would play any spin bowler significantly better. He was also one of the best cover fieldsman I've seen.

    Richardson V Snow: As with Grace, we have a similar set of unknowns with respect to Richardson's bowling. It is possible that he would be as fast and as intimidating as Snow, but I doubt it. Snow played two magnificent series against Australia, and also against the West Indies in 1967/68. John Snow time and again knocked-over great top order batsman, and is a proven performer. Trueman or Larwood might be England's greatest fast bowlers, but John Snow was simply the best.

    Willis v Statham: There is not much between these bowlers as they were both accurate and dependable. However, in his prime Willis had an extra yard of pace that Statham never had. With work-horses like Bedser and Underwood/Verity in the side the skills of Statham are not in great demand. Better to have a couple of strike-bowlers like Snow and Willis to open the attack, and then alternate them with shortish stints.

    In short, the former batting line-up of......

    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Geoff Boycott
    Peter May
    David Gower
    Dennis Compton
    Tony Greig (c)
    Les Ames (w)

    ......intuitively seems better balanced and more resilient than;

    WG Grace
    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Peter May
    Kevin Pietersen
    KS Ranjitsinjhi
    Tony Greig
    Les Ames

    Likewise, a bowling attack like.........

    John Snow
    Derek Underwood
    Bob Willis
    Alec Bedser

    ......intuitively seems better balanced, and to have more fire-power than;

    Alec Bedser
    Hedley Verity
    Tom Richardson
    Brian Statham

    (But of course, if you shout "prove it", I can't)
    Last edited by watson; 09-09-2013 at 07:59 AM.

  10. #25
    International Captain Himannv's Avatar
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    Aubrey Faulkner would make my first XI as will players like Waugh, Border, Hunte, Garner, Morris and Compton. However, the simple answer to this question is probably Australia.
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  11. #26
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    For SL,

    First XI

    Sanath Jayasuriya
    Tillekaratne Dilshan
    Kumar Sangakkata
    Aravinda de Silva
    Mahela Jayawardane*
    Mahadevan Sathasivam
    Prasanna Jayawardane+
    Ravi Ratnayake
    Chaminda Vaas
    Rumesh Ratnayake
    Muttiah Muralidaran

    2nd XI
    Marvan Atapattu
    Roy Dias
    Asanka Gurusinghe
    Thilan Samarweera
    Angelo Mathews
    Arjuna Ranatunga*
    Hashan Tillekaratne+
    Somachandra de Silva
    Asantha de Mel
    Rangana Herath
    Lasith Malinga

    It's hard to pick a quality second XI for SL. The number of players have been very limited.
    Last edited by Migara; 09-09-2013 at 08:44 AM.
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  12. #27
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    For SL,

    First XI

    Sanath Jayasuriya
    Tillekaratne Dilshan
    Kumar Sangakkata
    Aravinda de Silva
    Mahela Jayawardane*
    Mahadevan Sathasivam
    Prasanna Jayawardane+
    Ravi Ratnayake
    Chaminda Vaas
    Rumesh Ratnayake
    Muttiah Muralidaran

    2nd XI
    Marvan Atapattu
    Roy Dias
    Asanka Gurusinghe
    Thilan Samarweera
    Angelo Mathews
    Arjuna Ranatunga*
    Hashan Tillekaratne+
    Somachandra de Silva
    Asantha de Mel
    Rangana Herath
    Lasith Malinga

    It's hard to pick a quality second XI for SL. The number of players have been very limited.
    Even the first XI's bowling attack seems hard to round off

  13. #28
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    I have seen both Rumesh and Ravi in action. I can assure both were better than Vaas. That would make the bowling line up very strong given Murali is there.

  14. #29
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    It is hard to imagine the ratnanayakes to be better than Vaas. Obviously i didn't see much of them but don't recall too much about them either

  15. #30
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Ravi Ratnayeke | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

    found ravi's record with much difficulty. Couldn't find rumesh. The record doesn't seem all that flash

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