***Official*** New Zealand in Bangladesh & Sri Lanka 2013

[hendrix]

I think they have to keep Sodhi. You simply can't give someone just one test. He actually bowled better than Martin anyway.

Likewise, Anderson has to be retained. He was also our second best bowler after Boult.

Bring any of the quicks in for Martin is what I'd be doing.

 

[Flem274*]

I think they have to keep Sodhi. You simply can't give someone just one test. He actually bowled better than Martin anyway.

Likewise, Anderson has to be retained. He was also our second best bowler after Boult.

Bring any of the quicks in for Martin is what I'd be doing.

I think even in Martin's potential absence Sodhi and Anderson may live or die together, since imo it's a huge risk to play a wrist spinner as raw as Sodhi in a four man attack.

 

[Bahnz]

I think Martin will be eased out of the team using the (possibly even accurate) excuse that he just hasn't had enough time to fully recover from his injury to get back to where he was last season. I also reckon NZ will procede with 3 seamers, plus Sodhi and Anderson. It's a bit of a risk, as it leaves a short batting order, but I reckon Anderson's low econ mediums will be deemed an essential inclusion if Sodhi is the specialist spinner.

 

[hendrix]

I think Martin will be eased out of the team using the (possibly even accurate) excuse that he just hasn't had enough time to fully recover from his injury to get back to where he was last season. I also reckon NZ will procede with 3 seamers, plus Sodhi and Anderson. It's a bit of a risk, as it leaves a short batting order, but I reckon Anderson's low econ mediums will be deemed an essential inclusion if Sodhi is the specialist spinner.

I think this is the best solution to what was initially a poor selection move.

 

[Mike5181]

Haha so much this, and you're not the first to voice this suspicion (Howsie was saying it a fair bit last year based on what people closer than us had said iirc).

I wouldn't be surprised if they're looking for the slightest excuse to elevate Ronchi since he fits into the mould McHesson want for New Zealand so well. "Earned the right to be aggressive", "Plays with intent", "That's the way he plays" and so on. Players like Watling who are willing to bat time like a ***** Beta male and put work before a swig and a ciggie behind the bike sheds aren't welcome.

Ronchi hasn't exactly got the red carpet treatment. He's not in the test squad, and he's been dropped from the ODI team because of poor performances as an opener.

 

[Bahnz]

Haha so much this, and you're not the first to voice this suspicion (Howsie was saying it a fair bit last year based on what people closer than us had said iirc).

I wouldn't be surprised if they're looking for the slightest excuse to elevate Ronchi since he fits into the mould McHesson want for New Zealand so well. "Earned the right to be aggressive", "Plays with intent", "That's the way he plays" and so on. Players like Watling who are willing to bat time like a ***** Beta male and put work before a swig and a ciggie behind the bike sheds aren't welcome.

Don't really agree with this at all. I don't think Hesson really rates Ronchi that highly as a test option, as shown by the fact that despite mountains of FC runs, Ronchi lost out to Latham for both the English and Bangladesh tours. I also think the whole "earned the right to be aggressive" is more McCullum's philosophy than Hesson's, and that we should stop automatically lumping the two of them in together.

 

[Flem274*]

Ronchi hasn't exactly got the red carpet treatment. He's not in the test squad, and he's been dropped from the ODI team because of poor performances as an opener.

Good point, though I still agree with Steve and Howsie that McHesson don't rate Watling as highly as some of us do. Ronchi seems like the obvious successor considering he both fits the McHesson mould, is a classy gloveman and has runs. Maybe Latham?

I can't help but escape the feeling Watling has a shorter rope than most.

 

[Flem274*]

Anyway, I agree with Steve, Hendrix and Barnicles on the bowling. I don't want it to be the case but NZ are stuck in a situation of their own making, and they should persist with Sodhi and keep Anderson in as insurance in case we need to hide Sodhi. I also think Martin must be either short of a gallop or contracted a case of the yips since full tosses and long hops aren't what he bowled to England in his debut series for the most part and they don't get Plunket wickets five runs cheaper than even worse spinners.

 

[straw man]

May as well pick and stick now, play him in the right conditions and keep him amongst the group so he feels at ease over time. He's a talented guy who has the right tools, and if we're ever to develop a Test-winning spin bowler he's it. It ain't Astle, it ain't Martin, it ain't Patel, it isn't anyone else.

Think you're the first to just outright advocate that Sodhi becomes our number one spinner as of now. It's an option that's fraught with risk both to the team and his development, but so is sending him back to domestic cricket and retaining someone like Bartin - there's no path that presents itself as the obvious one. Development of young players is a difficult topic let alone for spin bowling that we don't have huge expertise in - Vettori's emergence as a reasonable success as a spinner the exception rather than rule in our history.

By this:

play him in the right conditions

... do you mean generally we go the four-seamer+Williamson route and only play Sodhi every so often? Probably better for the team but not so great for Sodhi - he spends a lot of time carrying drinks and when he does play it's often because the wicket is plain flat rather than likely to take turn - quite like what Patel faced for a few years there.

I'm undecided though still leaning toward the more conservative option of Bartin when we do require a spinner (<50% of matches). Give Sodhi a couple of seasons.

 

[straw man]

I think Martin will be eased out of the team using the (possibly even accurate) excuse that he just hasn't had enough time to fully recover from his injury to get back to where he was last season.

Yes that would be a useful little story to let them pick Sodhi over Bartin but then revert to Bartin for the home series vs West Indies (if we don't use four seamers there). There's always the 'risk' that Sodhi will take a hatful in the second test and make himself undroppable though .

I also think Martin must be either short of a gallop or contracted a case of the yips since full tosses and long hops aren't what he bowled to England in his debut series for the most part and they don't get Plunket wickets five runs cheaper than even worse spinners.

Tbh Bartin has bowled a fair number of pies pretty much every time I've seen him bowl. Remember his debut v England where he was handed some wickets off some absolutely rank deliveries.

 

[Bahnz]

Tbh Bartin has bowled a fair number of pies pretty much every time I've seen him bowl. Remember his debut v England where he was handed some wickets off some absolutely rank deliveries.

Heh, yeah that's true. At the Lord's test in particular, he bowled an obscene number of half-trackers, and yet somehow the English batsmen just kept hitting it to the fielders. Must've been maddening for Flower and Cook.

 

[Dan]

So is the general consensus for Test #2 Wagner in for Bartin?

I mean, picking Sodhi again is hardly ideal, but the way Bartin's bowling at the moment means he's nigh on useless. No point playing him when most of his overs would end up being thrown down by Kane anyway. Ish, by the sounds of things (couldn't find a way to watch the match), at least bowled something approaching half-decent.

Bracewell not up to being a part of a 2.5 man seam attack on unhelpful pitches. Never thought he was as good as everyone made him out to be after Hobart - he has the tools to be good, but just... isn't. Awesome future prospect but not quite up to it now IMO. Would prefer Milne or Henry in the absence of Timmeh, tbh. Bracewell could be the third, but Wagner probably more suited to conditions in terms of getting some reverse (and I get the impression Wagner's a bit more intelligent with his bowling, which is half the battle on difficult pitches).

Also, KW & Boult

 

[hendrix]

I think Bracewell will get another go and they'll just bring Gillespie or Wagner in for Bartin. Gillespie would be my choice tbh but it depends how well he's bowling.

 

[SteveNZ]

Wasn't sure I'd be amongst friends on that Watling opinion, there you go. Crazy if so, Watling has saved the bacon of Hesson and Wright before him on more than one occasion. He's exactly the sort of cricketer we require - good team man, will work hard until the day he hangs up his gloves and pads, sells his wicket dearly etc etc. Can't imagine how that wouldn't appeal to any coach

I like the Bruce Martin story. The toil for 12-13 seasons and truly learned his craft, but I think it's obvious he's given about all he can give. He's not really performing any sort of role, whether it be a containing or wicket-taking one - bar an English innings where they played recklessly against a side they thought they'd walk all over. Not sure his fitness is all that fancy either.

I'm not advocating Ish as our #1 spinner, more like our #1.5. Ie he plays in sub-continental conditions or those that befit himself over a fourth seamer/extra batsman. Otherwise Kane gets the gig, we either play Boult/Southee/Bracewell and a batsman (Brownlie) or Wagner/McClenaghan . Ish will play plenty of domestic cricket as he won't be involved in ODI/T20 cricket, and can be released as required in home Test campaigns where he is not required - which will obviously mean 13-man Test squads (not an issue at home). He becomes involved in A tours when possible and stays part of the Test fold to become more comfortable in it. We know he's the most talented spinner around, and will be an asset once the rough edges are trimmed off.

Anderson needs to offer significant runs if he's to keep in the mix as well, 20-30 won't cut it

 

[NZTailender]

Has more FC centuries than Sodhi as well fwiw.

 

[NZTailender]

Because, you know, nepotagoism.

 

[Bahnz]

I really don't think that Anderson's bowling is good enough at this stage to be the all rounder in a 4 man seam attack (+ Kane). If that's the kind of side you're going for then I reckon JimmyGS is probably better for that role.

 

[hendrix]

I think as a 3rd seamer you always need someone very good - e.g. Flintoff/Cairns quality, but you don't need to be that great to be the 4th seamer.

 

[Flem274*]

Has more FC centuries than Sodhi as well fwiw.

If he cements his place he might take the test record for most run outs.

 

[SteveNZ]

If he cements his place he might take the test record for most run outs.

The record is 800, I think he's left his run a wee bit late