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Thread: ***Official*** New Zealand in Bangladesh & Sri Lanka 2013

  1. #31
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    I exaggerated slightly for effect, but honestly, even being fair I'm doubtful he would have been given as much faith as he has by Wellington if he hadn't been plucked from obscurity all those years ago by John Bracewell. Plunket Shield spinners aren't amazing, but even they get dropped for the next so so spinner if they have the average of a batsman for too long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jeets doesn't really deserve to be bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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  2. #32
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    nah he wasn't plucked from obscurity he was picked initially in limited overs after doing really well for wellington. He performed well in LO for the black caps too until Dimitri Mascarenhas intervened.

  3. #33
    International Captain straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kippax View Post
    Dear Tastle,

    When are you leaving your Scottish and Essex clubs to come into Div 1 and average high 20s with bat and ball?

    Jeets

    LV= CC - Warwickshire v Sussex - Day 3 at Edgbaston - YouTube
    Haha yes, took me a while to find the stats but in three seasons 2011-2013 for Warwickshire the Jeetanator now has:
    118 wickets at 25.1
    651 runs at 24.1

    That's excellent and especially when both with wickets taken and runs scored have swung several matches in his team's favour.

    As Hendrix says there should be no surprise that a spinner comes into their own in their early thirties. However I also have a hard time believing he's really bowling any differently than he did last time he played for NZ. A few other things in his favour for Warwickshire:
    - He's playing for a very good side that puts the opposition under scoreboard pressure and can afford to attack.
    - English pitches have apparently been more conducive to spin in last couple of seasons, in a country where batsmen typically haven't grown up playing the turning ball.

    There's very little to suggest he's either a better or worse test spinner than Bartin, Vettori or Tastle imo. Though agree with RxGM that Williamson's place in the side is a mark against Patel getting another chance for NZ, under the 'variety' clause.

  4. #34
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Basically, the Patel blacklist makes about as much sense as the Flynn blacklist. It's not totally awful thinking in that there is some evidence behind it, but neither of them were ever complete non-performers.

    Guptill's selection as a middle order bat was very inconsistent. I think Flynn would have done a better job.

    Todd Astle's selection could turn out to be a bit Franklin-like in that he's not expected to contribute significantly with either bat or ball. But there are valid team composition arguments to be made in Astle's place.

    I think Hesson is a "greater good" believer and the fact that Flynn doesn't bowl and Patel isn't perceived to be a good batsmen count against them. Also the fact that neither is a slip fielder. Jeets was a very good inner circle fielder though.


  5. #35
    International Regular Kippax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    - English pitches have apparently been more conducive to spin in last couple of seasons, in a country where batsmen typically haven't grown up playing the turning ball.
    Yeah Jeets' bread-and-butter wickets you see on the county highlights are the quicker ball edged to slip, an inside-edged bat-pad catch, and a sweep that carries say 60-70 metres. NZ never supplies him with this '25-30 pitches used here' aspect in terms of quickly abrased and blackened footmarks and lengthy square boundaries at all.

    KW is naively dicing with death bowling for a county that attracts as much hate as Yorkshire as well btw, considering the tongues were already wagging a bit at Glos. Scaly's got a team in 2nd place ffs, this is far from 'keep anything that's fun' McGoldrickville he's strolling through atm.
    Last edited by Kippax; 03-09-2013 at 01:17 AM.
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  6. #36
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    There's very little to suggest he's either a better or worse test spinner than Bartin, Vettori or Tastle imo. Though agree with RxGM that Williamson's place in the side is a mark against Patel getting another chance for NZ, under the 'variety' clause.
    I really hope you're not suggesting that Vettori is on the same level as Bartin, Tastle or Jeets. I know we all like to grump about the fact that Vettori has never won New Zealand a test match with the ball, but it's also true that he's New Zealand's best spinner by miles, and almost certainly our best ever. If he were fit again, and back to the level of performance he set in 2008-11, I'd have him back in the team in a heartbeat, and not just for his batting.
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  7. #37
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kippax View Post
    Yeah Jeets' bread-and-butter wickets you see on the county highlights are the quicker ball edged to slip, an inside edged bat-pad catch, and a sweep that carries say 60-70 metres. NZ never supplies him with this '25-30 pitches used here' aspect in terms of quickly abrased and blackened footmarks and lengthy square boundaries at all.

    KW is naively dicing with death bowling for a county that attracts as much hate as Yorkshire as well btw, considering the tongues were already wagging a bit at Glos. Scaly's got a team in 2nd place ffs, this is far from 'keep anything that's fun' McGoldrickville he's strolling through atm.
    I don't want to sound harsh or anything, but what the **** does this even mean?

  8. #38
    International Regular Kippax's Avatar
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    She actually said that once. The English cricket fan welcomes a contentious debate and is less positivity-orientated than ours.

    Posted by CricketingStargazer on (May 20, 2013, 12:39 GMT)
    @Erebus26 There may be one reason not to depend too much on Kane Williamson. I know that when he played for Gloucestershire a couple of seasons back there was a lot of muttering about his action on the county circuit, especially for his faster ball. Some opponents were very unhappy about his action (I'm a Gloucestershire fan and remember this well). Maybe it would not be wise to subject him to too much scrutiny by playing him as a specialist, bowling long spells?
    Last edited by Kippax; 03-09-2013 at 12:04 AM.

  9. #39
    International Captain straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    I really hope you're not suggesting that Vettori is on the same level as Bartin, Tastle or Jeets. I know we all like to grump about the fact that Vettori has never won New Zealand a test match with the ball, but it's also true that he's New Zealand's best spinner by miles, and almost certainly our best ever. If he were fit again, and back to the level of performance he set in 2008-11, I'd have him back in the team in a heartbeat, and not just for his batting.
    I was allowing for a decline in Vettori's test bowling given he hasn't played for a while and if he does play again, is quite likely to never be 100% fit.

    Even so, when selecting from those four spinners it's sufficiently close that style (control vs attack), expected conditions (footmarks), plus non-bowling attributes (batting, fielding and intangibles like experience) are going to make up a large part of the decision rather than just 'spin bowling'. It's a points decision, not a knockout.

  10. #40
    International Captain Maximas's Avatar
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    Vettori looked very flat in the WI test he played, but Bartin and Jeets really aren't the options moving forward IMO. develop a decent wrist spinner IMO, whether it's Astle (batting at 8) or Sodhi
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  11. #41
    International Captain straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximas View Post
    Vettori looked very flat in the WI test he played, but Bartin and Jeets really aren't the options moving forward IMO. develop a decent wrist spinner IMO, whether it's Astle (batting at 8) or Sodhi
    That would be great except that I don't like our chances of this actually occurring. There's barely such a thing as a mediocre international wrist spinner* and the leap to becoming a good international wrist spinner is large. This is why most sides are happy enough with a finger spinner of the Vettori/ A.Petersen/ Boje/ Hauritz variety that can hold up an end.

    Astle could just maybe hold a place in the NZ side once Vettori retires if he bats well and we pick and choose when he bowls (against weak players of spin, against the tail, on rare occasions when we're on top of the match and can put fielders round the bat) rather than relying on 25 overs per day.

    I haven't seen a great deal of Sodhi; he sounds talented however it's also a massive mountain to climb.

    Otherwise, we're left with Williamson for the most part.

    * and just below mediocre they average 45 at 5 per over, go to pieces under pressure and get dropped.

  12. #42
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Jeets will have a lot of marks against his name because not only has he taken over 50 test wickets at nearly 50 a piece, the number one New Zealand spinner will be doing half of their bowling in New Zealand and Jeets has almost 200 wickets at the price of 40 runs each for Wellington. Bruce Martin and Todd Astle have better records without be outstanding. Martin has nearly 300 Plunket wickets at 35 and Astle when playing as a serious bowler has had two very good seasons (very good = under 30) and two poor ones.

    I actually think Astle has the accuracy to be one of those spinners who tie up an end without taking bags. In Sri Lanka he bowled quite nicely, but posters who know more than me about spin bowling were saying he simply wasn't getting them down there fast enough for his flight, turn and accuracy to be as effective as it should have been. He is probably quite an unusual wrist spinner in that respect. He definitely wasn't a Nethula-esque debut where he lost the plot.

  13. #43
    International Captain Maximas's Avatar
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    with Williamson in the team picking a spinner becomes kinda tricky, KW is a wicket taker, but still a finger spinner, so it's hard to imagine he is a truly attacking option, however he isn't accurate enough to hold down an end. So NZ's main spinner really needs to be able to attack and defend or the selectors will just have to choose, Bartin can't hold down an end properly, while Jeets isn't much of a wicket taker, and we all know what wrist-spinners can be like, so it's hard to say what the right option is tbh

  14. #44
    State 12th Man Immenso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    .

    I actually think Astle has the accuracy to be one of those spinners who tie up an end without taking bags. In Sri Lanka he bowled quite nicely, but posters who know more than me about spin bowling were saying he simply wasn't getting them down there fast enough for his flight, turn and accuracy to be as effective as it should have been. He is probably quite an unusual wrist spinner in that respect. He definitely wasn't a Nethula-esque debut where he lost the plot.
    This is a totally different view of Astle, to me.

    I don't see Astle as an accurate, tie down and end bowler, at all. He is very loose, tends towards the thigh high full toss though, rather than the long hop. But he bowls a lot of them. Gets big turn though.

    I'm just hoping he is getting better, In a general upward trend, since concentrating on spin. I don't know what balls he is trying to land when he bowls the full tosses, maybe they are just loose regular leggies. But I'm hoping every year he bowls less of them ... I see real potential (not an expert though, at all) but agree he is a luxury at the moment as a test option.

    But love your work Tastle.

  15. #45
    International Regular Kippax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immenso View Post
    Astle as an accurate, tie down and end bowler, at all.
    Haha no, AWTA. In theory he perhaps could be as Flem says (easy on the senses, anodyne, trusty etc.). Instead there's still that element of the hobbyist gourmet chef with Tastle I think, more than someone who takes it on as his day job to churn out commercially sound, unadventurous meals.

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