• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

New Zealand A Tour of India and Sri Lanka

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, Nayar lets you play Jadeja as a second spinner and gives you some godly batting depth. At home you could even go with 3 spinners (Ashwin, Jadeja, Mishra) and have genuine batsmen to 11.

1. Dhawan
2. Gambhir
3. Pujara
4. Tendulkar
5. Kohli
6. Nayar
7. Dhoni
8. Jadeja
9. Ashwin
10. Bhuvi
11. Yadav/Mishra
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I'm really not sure his bowling would be worth much of anything in international cricket though; that's the issue. He bowls accurately but that's the start and end of it really; he'd have to be extremely close to making the side as a batsman alone if not actually doing so to get a gig IMO, but Duncan Fletcher has always liked his multi-faceted cricketers and there's certainly absolutely nothing wrong with his batting record at any level.
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
He's a Ganguly level bowler sort of. Can swing it a bit and tie down one end in some circumstances.

But purely as a batsman he is behind a fair few plus has a weird Chanerpaul - esque technique which Indian selectors didn't like for a while. Can't see him being selected in the forseeable future but dunno, Fletcher might push for that kind of player as some have said.
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Weird that Jiwanjot was cut for this test and not the Crowned prince.

Juneja seems a very interesting prospect too. Another middle order batsman who has burst onto the scene last year.
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Anyone else surprised not to see Mukund in the side. I know he had a down year in Ranji last season but he was India A captain a year ago on the tour of NZ, and did well too
Yeah, i rate him still as a potential India player in the future. Been treated a bit unfairly compared to IPL star Vijay.

Also, while Pankaj Singh deserves pity, lets not kid ourselves. If you've seen him bowl, it's in the mold of joginder and vinay: effective for Ranji and not much else
You haven't seen him bowling lately then ?

He has added a bit of pace and is probably quicker and taller than Ishwar Pandey.
 

JontyPanesar

U19 Vice-Captain
There is a negative consequence of this so-called meritocracy- performance often gets ignored. There are not just consistent, but also game-changing performances, in the bottom tier, and some, like Rajasthan in 2010-11, trophy-winning. Nobody expected an erstwhile Plate league team to win the trophy, but they did. Now Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh are very competitive and can challenge the Group A regulars often. But in these top-tier teams, because they enjoy excessive patronage, they don't do anything significant- we see all-rounders virtually forfeit one skill (Abhishek Nayar) to help the other in the top tier, while in the bottom tier, a few (Rishi Dhawan, Parvez Rassool) go out of their way and carry their teams with bat and ball. We see top-tier seamers just bowl line and length and rely entirely on swing, while some from lesser teams (Umesh, Aaron) actually try to bowl fast, and plenty of pitches are flat enough to encourage their batsmen to have a nice, easy, long innings, as against grinding it out and turning the game around on a nasty strip. Much of this discussion came about because Jagadeesh from Kerala was selected on the back of impressive, consistent form over the whole season, just because Kerala is a Group C team. They had to reward that form, so he's got a game, and he's done very well, unlike a couple of top/middle-tier batsmen in this side.

Praveen Kumar needs to finish two whole seasons, back to back, at least two A-team tours, and return with not just wickets but also useful runs lower down, so that you have the option of playing five bowlers in the side. When you're playing four bowlers, he's not an ideal choice, because he doesn't run through teams. When there's a fifth bowler around (and with the likes of Ashwin and Bhuvan around, it can be explored), he can do the containing job while strikers such as Umesh and Mishra (far and away the only attacking spinner; everyone else is just plain defensive) can grab lots of wickets. Actually, let him too finish 50 FC, List-A and T20 games before he becomes a national prospect again- after all, what makes him so much better than Pankaj, Vinay, Dhawal and any other bowler who grinds it out for more matches in domestic cricket?

In other news, India A are at 280/3, with Juno scoring a century and Nayar striding close to his fifty.
By meritocracy, I'm talking about rewarding high quality performances in fc cricket over a sustained period. Not that group a players are always better than group c players, which is just false
I'm not trying to slag off group c, but again, you're going to face better bowlers and batsmen in group a v group c, so why not wait one more season before going with jagadeesh in India A? You seem to think ishwar pandey preys on weak competition in Ranji given that he gets dominated by gayle in ipl, but there is at least some difference in quality between groups A and C that has to be considered too.

Your standards for Praveen returning are absurd. It's as if he just made his fc debut and is completely unproven in your eyes. And that he needs to play t20 and list a cricket to prove himself for a test squad position is laughable. My concern is his fitness for fc cricket. So by that metric, Dhawal and Pankaj have to be placed ahead of him for now. Lets not entertain the thought of vinay in the test squad

You're kidding yourself if you think any Indian bowler can run through a side osc. Closest we have to that is Zak and Yadav

Pankaj Singh does not have as much pace as Ishwar from all that I saw of both last season. He's really clever and mixes up his length well. But if he bowls quickly enough as you (cevno) say, give him an opportunity in this upcoming a series v WI A.
 
Last edited:

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
By meritocracy, I'm talking about rewarding high quality performances in fc cricket over a sustained period. Not that group a players are always better than group c players, which is just false
I'm not trying to slag off group c, but again, you're going to face better bowlers and batsmen in group a v group c, so why not wait one more season before going with jagadeesh in India A? You seem to think ishwar pandey preys on weak competition in Ranji given that he gets dominated by gayle in ipl, but there is at least some difference in quality between groups A and C that has to be considered too.
I do agree, performances over a sustained period should be rewarded, but then, that should definitely put someone who's got impressive stats over 50, no 75, no 100, FC matches, ahead of most of these young tykes picked on their youth instead of pedigree. Jagadeesh has made it only into the India A team, and the visiting Kiwis are hardly veterans, bar Mark Gillespie, Neil Broom and Trans-Tasman hopper Luke Ronchi, so for this level of cricket, he's just right, like Unmukt Chand. Ideally, Jagadeesh and JJ Singh should have opened the batting and they could have dropped Chand outright, but that didn't happen.

Your standards for Praveen returning are absurd. It's as if he just made his fc debut and is completely unproven in your eyes. And that he needs to play t20 and list a cricket to prove himself for a test squad position is laughable. My concern is his fitness for fc cricket. So by that metric, Dhawal and Pankaj have to be placed ahead of him for now. Lets not entertain the thought of vinay in the test squad

You're kidding yourself if you think any Indian bowler can run through a side osc. Closest we have to that is Zak and Yadav
Why discredit folks who have actually spent more than five years, nearly a decade, in the system, just because someone young enough has shown exceptional talent in fits and starts? Let him too pile up the FC/List-A caps like the others. That no Indian bowlers can run through teams is a problem, which needs to be fixed, and you have to pick those who run through teams, at least at the level they play. Even Zak struggled a lot, until the county stint in 2006 made him a much-improved bowler. As for Vinay, I believe he was not handled properly at all. He's not a mediocre bowler at all, but the management was completely clueless, as they always are, at managing the players- teams with players a lot less talented have got a lot more out of them. Why, even India (or should I say, MS Dhoni) have got a lot out of a flat-pelter like Jadeja, whom they love so much.

In other news, Juno is inching closer towards another double century. He's been supported by Jalaj, Wagh and now Dhawal, as three partnerships over 30 were put together. Thirty more runs and they're ahead- Juno doing better than his personal best will be an incentive.
 
Last edited:

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Nayar, on the other hand, doesn't fit the side so well, given the Indians need to strengthen their bowling, and his bowling has no strength in it. He's hardly ever bowled over the last few seasons, and as Cevno pointed out, he's a lot like Ganguly, but more like Ganguly towards the end of his career- ambling down the pitch, rolling his arm over, as against charging down and pounding the ball into the pitch. Better options for such a role exist, such as Laxmi Ratan Shukla and by a long shot, Stuart Binny and Rajat Bhatia, all of whom bowl a lot more. He can come useful only when the pitch is strongly in favour of the seamers, but we won't see too many of those.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Juneja masterclass lifts India A | Cricket Match Report | Wisden India

On a surface that didn’t deteriorate as much as New Zealand A hoped it would, Manprit Juneja stamped his authority with a dominating century as India A ended the third day of their four-day fixture at 408 for 7, trailing New Zealand A’s first innings total of 437 by just 29 runs, with Juneja unbeaten on 178 at the ACA-VDCA Stadium in Visakhapatnam on Wednesday (September 4).

Juneja, playing in only his 12th first-class match, batted through the day. He joined hands with VA Jagadeesh, the Kerala opener, in a fine exhibition of batting in the first session that set the tone for the day. The third-wicket partnership of 197 put to rest any fears of India A’s middle-order being exposed against the moving ball early on.

Juneja’s composure and Jagadeesh’s determination ensured New Zealand A were left searching for options in muggy conditions. Jagadeesh brought out a different dimension in his game, playing more freely against the pacers, unlike on Tuesday, where he was happy offering a dead bat. And with the conditions perhaps being at their best, the change in approach brought him runs.

At one stage, Jagadeesh even matched Juneja stroke-for-stroke as New Zealand A quickly went on the defensive by adopting a negative line. Jagadeesh wasn’t always fluent, but his gumption and willingness to put a price on his wicket was admirable. He played on the bowlers’ patience, and as they lost their sting on a sapping morning, accumulated runs to race into the 90s.

While Juneja breezed through to a century, nervousness got the better of Jagadeesh on 91. Doug Bracewell, brought into the attack for a ten-minute burst before lunch, struck straightaway by knocking over Jagadeesh’s leg stump with a delivery that nipped back sharply. Jagadeesh, who suddenly appeared to have shut shop with the lunch interval round the corner, played outside the line of a delivery that sneaked through bat and pad as New Zealand A got a much-needed lift going into the break.

“I lost my concentration as the lunch break approached,” admitted a disappointed Jagadeesh after the day’s play. “Conditions were easier to bat in today, and I had a chance to make a big score, but overall I’m pleased with my contribution because it was my first game for India A.”

After lunch, the pace of the game picked up as Abhishek Nayar, the India A captain, counter-attacked by repeatedly piercing the off-side field against Todd Astle and Ish Sodhi, the legspinners, even as Juneja suddenly struggled for timing, the heat visibly taking its toll. Nayar raced away to a fifty off just 47 balls with seven fours and a six, forcing Tom Latham, the New Zealand A captain, to take the second new ball five overs after it was available.

That move worked straightaway as Bracewell broke an 88-run stand by dismissing Nayar (57), who played on while trying to force a length ball through the off side. A few minutes later, CM Gautam (1) hung his bat out to a delivery angling away to be caught behind by Luke Ronchi as India A slipped from a comfortable 301 for 3 to 304 for 5.

Even with wickets falling around him, Juneja didn’t change his game drastically. He scored only 33 runs in the post-lunch session, which was also a sign of how well New Zealand A tied him down by maintaining a tight line. But to Juneja’s credit, his unwavering concentration and the determination to grind the bowling helped him steer clear of any pressure.

But with wickets tumbling at the other end, Juneja was forced to take more of the strike. Jalaj Saxena (20) and Shrikant Wagh (19) didn’t stay for too long as the match quickly turned into a battle for the first-innings lead with India A 374 for 7. But Dhawal Kulkarni lent able support to Juneja as India A hung on till the close of play. A result looks unlikely now, with only one day’s play left.

Astle, who picked up two wickets said Juneja’s knock had made the difference. “More than the conditions, I think it was Juneja who made the difference today,” said Astle. “As a bowling group we tried our best. The ball wasn’t turning that much and the cracks didn’t open up, so we wanted to be accurate. But all credit to him”

On a day that produced 314 runs, Juneja’s knock was a reassuring sign of the batting depth in India, and of the fact that old-school principles of valuing one’s wicket were still being ingrained at the domestic level.
Playing Bracewell at nets during IPL helped a lot, says Manprit Juneja

New Delhi: Irrespective of what people think about Indian Premier League but Manprit Juneja is certainly enjoying the positives gained for having been with Delhi Daredevils for two seasons as he cracked an unbeaten 178 against New Zealand A in a four-day game here on Wednesday.

"Their premier bowler is Doug Bracewell and having faced him at the Delhi Daredevils nets have really helped me. I have had long net sessions against Bracewell and knew what pace he bowls and his areas of strength," the softspoken Juneja told PTI over phone from Visakhapatnam today.

"I would say every tournament has its pluses, whether it`s Ranji Trophy which helps you in preparing for longer format or IPL where you get to play best bowlers. The small contributions that I made in IPL (48 vs MI at Wankhede) had helped me evolve as a player," Juneja added.

Asked whether he rates his knock of 178 not out above his debut double hundred against Tamil Nadu in Ranji Trophy, the 22-year-old said, "No, I think my debut double hundred was a better effort. Today`s innings was satisfying but I am not entirely happy. Yes, I am happy that I have managed to bat the whole day. Also would like to thank Jagadeesh and Nayar bhai (Abhishek) for their support."

With 22 runs required to score a double hundred, is he tensed? He quickly answered, "I would have been tense if I would be 190 not out but not at 178 n.o. It`s still some distance to go," the stylish right-hander said.

Asked if an outright victory is possible, Juneja said, "We will be positive from the start and see how it goes. The pitch is a slow one and one has to work really hard as a bowler to make things happen."
Nice to hear the articulate dauphins of Delhi batting coming through also find Bracewell to be very useful in the nets.

"Reading Wilde has lightened my mood immensely. Come and bowl at once!" - Unmukt
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Nayar, on the other hand, doesn't fit the side so well, given the Indians need to strengthen their bowling, and his bowling has no strength in it. He's hardly ever bowled over the last few seasons, and as Cevno pointed out, he's a lot like Ganguly, but more like Ganguly towards the end of his career- ambling down the pitch, rolling his arm over, as against charging down and pounding the ball into the pitch. Better options for such a role exist, such as Laxmi Ratan Shukla and by a long shot, Stuart Binny and Rajat Bhatia, all of whom bowl a lot more. He can come useful only when the pitch is strongly in favour of the seamers, but we won't see too many of those.
Or pitches ridiculously geared towards spinners against poor players of spin, where he bats at 6 and plays the Ganguly role of 10 overs an innings to get the shine off the new ball for an attack of Mishra, Ashwin and Jadeja.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I think a Ganguly standard medium pacer would be useful as the 5th bowler in an attack featuring two other seamers and two spinners.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Haha well, that's what every girl longs to hear. We're sort of like a FIFO job in the Pilbara.
I hope there are arseholes like me on the selection panel who will blacklist him forever based on that comment. We all know he came here hoping for an easy ride, but he didn't need to flaunt it. Makes me an even bigger Watling supporter now.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
I don't really see why being honest should affect his selection chances.

There is more depth in Australia.

It doesn't mean they're better players. He very clearly had a greater chance of selection over here. To say anything else would be embarrassingly patronising.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Nah, if you're a plastic kiwi you're already unpopular because everyone knows you're over here purely for yourself. The best thing you can do is at least pay lip service or shut up and say nothing, and just talk about how much you're looking forward to the challenge and how you enjoy being a part of the team etc. If you keep your trap shut then put in some good performances your flexible loyalties will be mostly forgiven. Especially if you belt your country of origin. See Brownlie, Dean.

I'm just glad he's the second best keeper batsman in the country.

edit: there are obvious exemptions to the plastic kiwi tag I guess, like if you came over here as a kid/teenager/young adult and have been in the country for a decade so you actually have some real world affinity for the place then that's all good. That applies to a lot of the England players, and a few of ours I think.
 
Last edited:

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Utterly tactless to say it was the biggest reason and allude to it being all about him and playing Test cricket. With anyone. essentially.
 

JontyPanesar

U19 Vice-Captain
Lol I saw a good chunk of that match live (thanks willowtv, you're good for at least something). I didn't think he was that quick at the time and I still don't think he really is. He's just really smart with his lengths and he's always at the batsman with his accuracy. I really hate slagging off someone who has done well in FC cricket because I more than anyone want Ranji performers to enjoy greater opportunity and success. But it's hard to see bowlers like him succeeding who don't seem to have sufficient pace (though if he does, then the bcci should go for it) and don't have any real ability to swing the ball. He is accurate and could at least tie an end down in test cricket, but beyond that, I'm skeptical. He does have great seam position, so maybe he'll extract consistent movement with the new ball, but I have yet to see an Indian bowler of his kind succeed at the test level.

Arjun, Vinay's seam position is very good, and he's pretty accurate, but given his lack of pace, his spanking at the WACA was inevitable. It's not even an effort issue; he tries hard and I appreciate that about him. I still hope he can carve out a niche as a death bowler who bowls 125k yorkers at the international level. But unless he can extract consistent movement with the new ball, he's going to find life hard at the test level. Same goes for Pankaj imo, but Pankaj really deserves the opportunity to prove critics like me wrong. Vinay at least was selected for international squads for a decent stretch.

And I guess the reason I don't mind fast-tracking bowlers is because it's hard for a lot of them to stay fit for a long stretch. That's not an Indian phenomenon. Ryano is rarely fit for Australia but the selectors still persist with him, as they should imo. He has always proved his worth at the test level. Not saying PK is Ryano for a second, but given the barren Indian seamer cupboard, on a relative basis, the analogy isn't totally misplaced. I will also note that while Australian bowlers have trouble staying healthy because of what 90mph bowling can do to the knees, loading up on rotis can also be damaging to fitness (tongue-in-cheek)

And I think India A caps do deserve some prestige too. It's an opportunity to test yourself against players you will rarely get to face. There are certain things that osc quicks can do on the subcontinent that these players simply don't see in Ranji. Though these are kiwis...so not sure how quick. :P
A guy like Mandeep Singh would be a good fit for this tour given his age and success at the first class level, even if he already faced NZ A in NZ already.
 

jcas0167

International Debutant
Utterly tactless to say it was the biggest reason and allude to it being all about him and playing Test cricket. With anyone. essentially.
Certainly tactless, it goes without saying that if you move to another country to play international cricket that you percieve there to be less depth. Although, in the heat and distance of India I imagine it would be easy to let your guard down and explain it in the most plain terms to someone who may not be familiar with the NZ/Oz population disparity.

The depth in his position is actually quite good though - Latham & Watling would be currently rated ahead of him? De Boorder & Van Vyk are also useful.
 

Top