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Thread: DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen - The Top 25

  1. #571
    School Boy/Girl Cricketer Captain_Cook's Avatar
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    I noticed that many members have Hobbs and Hutton as their All Time opening partnership. Since Hobbs and Sutcliffe had the greatest opening partnership in history, was Hutton that much better than Sutcliffe to break up such a legendary partnership?

    Are the best individual batsman for the position preferable to those who have enough mutual understanding and complimentary skills?
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  2. #572
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_Cook View Post
    Are the best individual batsman for the position preferable to those who have enough mutual understanding and complimentary skills?
    Yes, basically. It's a theoretical side; we could theoretically make them play 15 Tests a year together for 20 years. I'm sure Hobbs and Hutton would have just as good an understanding after that period.

    I'm definitely not sold on the idea of picking someone just because he happened to play with someone else even in practical sides, but in theoretical sides it's definitely grossly unfair and needless in the process of picking the best players to form the best side on paper.

    I should make it clear that I've got no problems with people actually picking Sutcliffe. You could make a good case for Sutcliffe being better than Hutton as I believe Coronis and maybe a couple of others have. "He was lucky enough to play with Hobbs" is a cop out though; when picking these teams the idea IMO is to remove the variables that exist due to circumstance and chance as best you can and examine how all the candidates performed in the situations they found themselves in and how much they proved in doing so.
    Last edited by Prince EWS; 30-08-2013 at 09:42 AM.
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  3. #573
    International Debutant Viscount Tom's Avatar
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    Bradman's will be higher but that aside I think it could be.

  4. #574
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_Cook View Post
    I noticed that many members have Hobbs and Hutton as their All Time opening partnership. Since Hobbs and Sutcliffe had the greatest opening partnership in history, was Hutton that much better than Sutcliffe to break up such a legendary partnership?

    Are the best individual batsman for the position preferable to those who have enough mutual understanding and complimentary skills?
    For me yes, but I also belive Hutton may have been better than Hobbs as well. Sutcliiffe for me just scored too damm slowly, a s/r in the hight 30's just doesn't cut it for me. Added to the fact that was a cear number two to Hobbs in the partnership and those who saw them play unanimously choose Hobbs as Sutcliffe superior while Hutton faced superior attacks and faced greater challenges. Pretty clear cut for me.

    Additioanlly if we are picking by partnerships then why not pick Garner to open with Marshall, best opening new ball pair ever and Garner's stats on face value are comparable or better than those in competition for the slot opposite Maco's and they also complement each other well.

    The way I se it pick the best players period.
    Last edited by kyear2; 30-08-2013 at 09:58 AM.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3


  5. #575
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Hobbs, Hutton, Sobers, and Hammond maintained an avg close to 60 for almost till the last few innings of their careers. No wonder they are so high up in the rankings. Lara standing tall along with them (and Bradman) is the best thing for me.

  6. #576
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    Hobbs, Hutton, Sobers, and Hammond maintained an avg close to 60 for almost till the last few innings of their careers. No wonder they are so high up in the rankings. Lara standing tall along with them (and Bradman) is the best thing for me.
    Yea, really though Viv would have been higher that Lara though, but both were absolutely brilliant and peerless at their absolute best.

  7. #577
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    would have loved Viv to be in the top 5. Would be interesting to see if Lara came out ahead of Sobers in this exercise.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  8. #578
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quite surprised Hutton isn't higher - for he's always been the best batsman whose initials aren't DGB, save for a few years in the 80s when Graeme Fowler was at his peak, obviously

  9. #579
    Hall of Fame Member honestbharani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    I'll reply to what I want to reply to. If you don't like it, don't read. Just as I ignore half your bull**** posts on here.

    Having said that, I'm more interested in the next batsman coming up. Hurry up DoG.


    Nah.. u guys are dng Warne Vs Murali in proxy here basically.. It would be better if you guys took this argument there and leave this floor to DoG This is not even a top 100 bowlers' thread, FFS..
    Last edited by honestbharani; 30-08-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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    In the end, I think it's so utterly, incomprehensibly boring. There is so much context behind each innings of cricket that dissecting statistics into these small samples is just worthless. No-one has ever been faced with the same situation in which they come out to bat as someone else. Ever.
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  10. #580
    Cricket Web Staff Member chasingthedon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    I didn't know that number, although I suppose with an educated guess I'd have got within 10k of it, but it really does put that innings in context - phenomenal performance, although I don't think its in the top 25 in Patrick Ferriday's new book
    Spoiler alert

  11. #581
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    For me yes, but I also belive Hutton may have been better than Hobbs as well. Sutcliiffe for me just scored too damm slowly, a s/r in the hight 30's just doesn't cut it for me. Added to the fact that was a cear number two to Hobbs in the partnership and those who saw them play unanimously choose Hobbs as Sutcliffe superior while Hutton faced superior attacks and faced greater challenges. Pretty clear cut for me.

    Additioanlly if we are picking by partnerships then why not pick Garner to open with Marshall, best opening new ball pair ever and Garner's stats on face value are comparable or better than those in competition for the slot opposite Maco's and they also complement each other well.

    The way I se it pick the best players period.
    Since you are so obsessed with strike-rates, here are the strike-rates for innings of 50+ for the top 25 batsmen.

    Hutton and Sutcliffe were in the same ballpark.

    But I agree with you that Hutton faced much better bowling attacks and that, together with his great innings', is primarily why he is ahead of Sutcliffe in this analysis.

    IVA Richards 68.00
    BC Lara 66.28
    RG Pollock 63.00
    RT Ponting 62.04
    DG Bradman 62.00
    ED Weekes 62.00
    Inzamam-ul-Haq 57.73
    KC Sangakkara 56.68
    SR Tendulkar 56.38
    GS Chappell 55.00
    RN Harvey 55.00
    GS Sobers 54.00
    JB Hobbs 53.00
    Javed Miandad 52.00
    SR Waugh 51.79
    WR Hammond 51.00
    JH Kallis 49.69
    GA Headley 47.00
    SM Gavaskar 47.00
    R Dravid 46.76
    S Chanderpaul 46.29
    AR Border 44.03
    L Hutton 43.00
    KF Barrington 42.00
    H Sutcliffe 40.00


    Some of the numbers have been rounded off because the data wasn't fully available and I had to take an educated guess at the balls faced. Charles Davis helped me a lot in this regard.


    Also, have you seen scorecards for the 1928/29 Ashes? Some of Hammond's centuries were scored at a strike-rate of under 30. Fair dibs, there were timeless tests IIRC, but still.
    Last edited by Days of Grace; 30-08-2013 at 06:32 PM.
    Greatest Ever Test XI: JB Hobbs, L Hutton, DG Bradman (c), IVA Richards, BC Lara, GS Sobers, AC Gilchrist (wk), Imran Khan, RJ Hadlee, MD Marshall, SK Warne 12th man: M Muralitharan


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  12. #582
    Request Your Custom Title Now! benchmark00's Avatar
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  13. #583
    State Regular L Trumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crumbs View Post
    Only joined recently and I just read the whole thread through, all 41 pages. What a thoroughly thought-provoking analysis... fascinating and edumacating in equal measure - rare combo! Just want to say thanks for the mindbending amount of work you must have put into this, DoG.

    Eagerly anticipating the bowlers' version, although I may have to go away and wait for that thread to reach 50 pages so I can have another binge-in-one-sitting read. Installments would probably kill me.

    Hobbs next??

    Same with me. I joined this forum 3 1/2 years ago, when Sean was doing 50 greatest players, and binge-read all 50 threads. It is all down hill from there, till this thread.

  14. #584
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Days of Grace View Post
    Since you are so obsessed with strike-rates, here are the strike-rates for innings of 50+ for the top 25 batsmen.

    Hutton and Sutcliffe were in the same ballpark.

    But I agree with you that Hutton faced much better bowling attacks and that, together with his great innings', is primarily why he is ahead of Sutcliffe in this analysis.

    IVA Richards 68.00
    BC Lara 66.28
    RG Pollock 63.00
    RT Ponting 62.04
    DG Bradman 62.00
    ED Weekes 62.00
    Inzamam-ul-Haq 57.73
    KC Sangakkara 56.68
    SR Tendulkar 56.38
    GS Chappell 55.00
    RN Harvey 55.00
    GS Sobers 54.00
    JB Hobbs 53.00
    Javed Miandad 52.00
    SR Waugh 51.79
    WR Hammond 51.00
    JH Kallis 49.69
    GA Headley 47.00
    SM Gavaskar 47.00
    R Dravid 46.76
    S Chanderpaul 46.29
    AR Border 44.03
    L Hutton 43.00
    KF Barrington 42.00
    H Sutcliffe 40.00


    Some of the numbers have been rounded off because the data wasn't fully available and I had to take an educated guess at the balls faced. Charles Davis helped me a lot in this regard.


    Also, have you seen scorecards for the 1928/29 Ashes? Some of Hammond's centuries were scored at a strike-rate of under 30. Fair dibs, there were timeless tests IIRC, but still.
    Was aware of Hammond's scoring rate which is again one of the reasons Indon't rate him as highly as some others. Though Hobbs and Sobers numbers would have been higher and though Chappell's was lower as well, so pleasant surprise from him. What really was surprising was Headley, that number was much lower than expected.

    Someone I will be taking an additional look at is Sir Everton, Bradman had stated that he was the best W.I batsman he had seen and he saw Sobers, Headley and Richards.
    Last edited by kyear2; 30-08-2013 at 09:58 PM.

  15. #585
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    Clearly, strike rate is not always important for a batsman.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. A.C Gilchrist 7. Imran Khan 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

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