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Thread: ATG XI- Open Voting

  1. #91
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    Curious to see which 4 or 5 batsmen you consider to be up there behind Bradman. Sobers, Hobbs, Richards and...?
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. M.J Procter 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  2. #92
    School Boy/Girl Cricketer jaideep's Avatar
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    First 11

    1.Jack Hobbs
    2.Len Hutton
    3.Don Bradman
    4.Brian Lara
    5.Viv Richards
    6.Gary Sobers
    7.Adam Gilchrist
    8.Shane Warne
    9.Malcolm Marshall
    10.Sydney Barnes
    11.Glenn Mcgrath

    Second 11

    1.Barry Richards
    2.Herbert Sutcliffe
    3.George Headley
    4.Graeme Pollock
    5.Greg Chappell
    6.Keith Miller
    7.Imran Khan
    8.Alan Knott
    9.Richard Hadlee
    10.Muttiah Muralitharan
    11.Bill o'Reilly
    Last edited by jaideep; 30-06-2013 at 08:02 AM.

  3. #93
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    .

    Sobers was the best All Rounder to play the game and has been unanimously accepted as such. Where he separates from Imran is that he has dominated series with the bat, ball and as a fielder at the same time. He is one of a handful of batsmen (probably 4 or 5) who can be legitimately seen as the best after Bradman, he is arguably and probably the greatest fielder ever and the most versatile bolwer the game has seen. Warne mastered the most difficult skill in the game and the first and only to do since covered pitches and was seen as a match winner and along with Gilchrist and Mcgrath seen as the cornerstone of one of the two greatest teams ever. My top three players as stated above are Bradman, comfortably the greatest batsman, Sobers the best All Rounder and Marshall for me clearly the greatest bolwer and matchwinner. He was equally great and succesful everywhere and againts everyone mastering all conditions and he took the W.I over the top as arguably the greatest team of All Time despite the declining skills of Richards and the retirement of Lloyd, Holding, Roberts ect. Imran was a great bolwer, but no where as good on the road as he was at home, he was seen as a bolwing all rounder, but his batting never came on until after his injury and his bolwing decline, he never dominated a series with bat and ball like Sobers or even Miller or Botham. He was a below average fielder and other perhiperal issues that prevent me from placing him above the others I named and additionally Gilchrist who revolutionised his position.
    Your arguments are so fallacious as usual. Let me point out a few of them?

    First of all just because Warne was the cornerstone of one of the greatest ever team automatically makes him a greater cricketer?
    So reviving an art in bowling makes him a great bowler not getting wickets cheaper?
    Thirdly, which is something so stupid and which you always fail to address that you penalize Imran for being godly at home and being very good away from it?
    And before you bring in the home umpires argument please do remember the patriotic WI umpires who ensured that the WI didn't lose a series at home in the 1980s.
    What Imran loses in his fielding he more than makes up for it with leadership and mentorship. Also by your logic you need to give some credit to Imran for being one of the pioneers of reverse swing (bringing in a new art and all that )
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  4. #94
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Replace Warne with Gilchrist and thats my 5. Warne is definitely not clearly better than Murali.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Curious to see which 4 or 5 batsmen you consider to be up there behind Bradman. Sobers, Hobbs, Richards and...?
    Can't ignore Tendulkar's career and record(s). Have we forgotten already how great he has been for 20 years? Additionally Lara was arguably better than Sachin and while not in the aformentioned 4/5 Headley deserves a mention, minnow team with no batting support who was seen second only to Bradman in his era, but more attractive to watch. He was adaptable, a quick learner and had to be Atlas for our fledging team while on his way to being known as the black Bradman.

    But I digress, Sachin and probably Lara.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3


  5. #95
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Replace Warne with Gilchrist and thats my 5. Warne is definitely not clearly better than Murali.
    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Your arguments are so fallacious as usual. Let me point out a few of them?

    First of all just because Warne was the cornerstone of one of the greatest ever team automatically makes him a greater cricketer?
    So reviving an art in bowling makes him a great bowler not getting wickets cheaper?
    Thirdly, which is something so stupid and which you always fail to address that you penalize Imran for being godly at home and being very good away from it?
    And before you bring in the home umpires argument please do remember the patriotic WI umpires who ensured that the WI didn't lose a series at home in the 1980s.
    What Imran loses in his fielding he more than makes up for it with leadership and mentorship. Also by your logic you need to give some credit to Imran for being one of the pioneers of reverse swing (bringing in a new art and all that )
    The last point I will give you, as even though he didn't start it, he did perfect it.

    As for the rest, Marshall was godly at home as away and regarding the umpires, you keep referencing three decisions by one umpire in one innings in one match, because they arn't that much to choose from, not quite the same. Reputation wise we were better than India, Australia, New Zealand and Pakistan from that or any era. When there is that big a difference for a bowler between home a away average there is probably a good reason why.

    Regarding Warne, what he managed to do on covered pitches (along with Murali) and perform well at home and away and the way he won matches is enough for me to be in my top seven, which is where I rate him. As far as leadership goes, it is subjective and for me over rated as you are only as good as your players and different people rate captains based on different criteria (tactics/leadership/performance/motivation) so fielding is more tangible and again thats another place where Imran drops for me. He makes my first team so obviously he is highly rated, just not as high as you rate him.

  6. #96
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    The last point I will give you, as even though he didn't start it, he did perfect it.

    As for the rest, Marshall was godly at home as away and regarding the umpires, you keep referencing three decisions by one umpire in one innings in one match, because they arn't that much to choose from, not quite the same. Reputation wise we were better than India, Australia, New Zealand and Pakistan from that or any era. When there is that big a difference for a bowler between home a away average there is probably a good reason why.

    Regarding Warne, what he managed to do on covered pitches (along with Murali) and perform well at home and away and the way he won matches is enough for me to be in my top seven, which is where I rate him. As far as leadership goes, it is subjective and for me over rated as you are only as good as your players and different people rate captains based on different criteria (tactics/leadership/performance/motivation) so fielding is more tangible and again thats another place where Imran drops for me. He makes my first team so obviously he is highly rated, just not as high as you rate him.
    So you finally concede on reverse swing.

    And really now? Since when did you come up with this self proclaimed ranking of WI being the torch bearer of best umpiring? There are quite a few stories that can be dug up as to how WI umpires let their bowlers use intimidatory tactics without stepping in and I am sure it won't be too difficult to dig out WI umpires generosity to their own batsmen either.

    And you rate Warne's away record as being really good when he clearly didn't do so well against the best team of his era and in their home country. So how come he doesn't get penalized for that while Imran's average is criticized for being different home and away. A fair bit of hypocrisy
    Last edited by smalishah84; 30-06-2013 at 09:41 AM.

  7. #97
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Tally Update

    Don Bradman- 150
    Garry Sobers- 150
    Malcolm Marshall- 150

    Jack Hobbs- 144
    Adam Gilchrist- 133
    Shane Warne- 126
    Viv Richards- 119
    Len Hutton- 118

    Imran Khan- 105
    Richard Hadlee- 87
    Brian Lara- 85
    Glenn McGrath- 83
    Sachin Tendulkar- 78
    Muttiah Muralitharan- 75

    Sunil Gavaskar- 62
    Alan Knott- 58
    Curtly Ambrose- 56
    Wally Hammond- 54
    Graeme Pollock- 49
    Dennis Lillee- 47
    Barry Richards- 47
    Herbert Sutcliffe- 47
    Greg Chappell- 47
    George Headley- 42
    Jacques Kallis- 37
    Syd Barnes- 35
    Bill O'Reilly- 32

    Keith Miller- 29
    Wasim Akram- 24
    Fred Trueman- 15
    Mike Procter- 13
    W.G. Grace- 12
    Clyde Walcott- 11
    Harold Larwood- 10
    Joel Garner- 10

    Ricky Ponting- 8
    Kumar Sangakkara- 8
    Dale Syeyn- 6
    Ian Botham- 5
    Waqar Younis- 5
    Last edited by kyear2; 30-06-2013 at 06:06 PM.

  8. #98
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Lara getting 85 votes while Ponting only has 8 says something. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but is says something...

  9. #99
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    short term memory bias

  10. #100
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaideep View Post
    First 11

    1.Jack Hobbs
    2.Len Hutton
    3.Don Bradman
    4.Brian Lara
    5.Viv Richards
    6.Gary Sobers
    7.Adam Gilchrist
    8.Shane Warne
    9.Malcolm Marshall
    10.Sydney Barnes
    11.Glenn Mcgrath

    Second 11

    1.Barry Richards
    2.Herbert Sutcliffe
    3.George Headley
    4.Graeme Pollock
    5.Greg Chappell
    6.Keith Miller
    7.Imran Khan
    8.Alan Knott
    9.Richard Hadlee
    10.Muttiah Muralitharan
    11.Bill o'Reilly
    I like both those teams, and I especially like the balance of the second team. Imran-Knott-Hadlee provide enough batting depth to compensate for the inclusion of Keith Miller at No.6, and allow O'Reilly to partner Murali.

    (And no, I don't think that the batting of Imran and Hadlee is over-rated, although ironically, I think that Miller's probably is)

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Lara getting 85 votes while Ponting only has 8 says something. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but is says something...
    It is clear as hell that people are severely underrating Ponting, Tendulkar and even Dravid.., while overrating Lara, Pollock, etc..
    Short-term memory bias.
    Proud Supporter of All Blacks

  12. #102
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    To rate Pollock so far ahead of Ponting as many here have done is a bit surrprising for me, Lara and Tendulkar was always seen to be ahead of Ponting, but not by this much.

  13. #103
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post

    First XI
    - Len Hutton
    - Barry Richards
    - Don Bradman
    - Greg Chappell
    - Viv Richards
    - Garry Sobers
    - Adam Gilchrist
    - Shane Warne
    - Malcolm Marshall
    - Dennis Lillee
    - Glenn McGrath

    Second XI
    - WG Grace
    - Jack Hobbs
    - Ricky Ponting
    - Sachin Tendulkar
    - Brian Lara
    - Jaques Kallis
    - Allan Knott
    - Imran Khan
    - Wasim Akram
    - Curtly Ambrose
    - Bill O'Reilly

    Third XI
    - Herb Sutcliffe
    - Bill Lawry
    - George Headley
    - Wally Hammond
    - Neil Harvey
    - Steve Waugh
    - Farohk Engineer
    - Richard Hadlee
    - Ray Lindwall
    - Fred Trueman
    - Muralitharan
    Just forgot Hammond, completely. Walcott has to make way in my third XI sadly.

    One thing I find hard in this exercise is finding a spot for guys like Miller, Botham and Kapil. Such brilliant all rounders, but not sure who I'd leave out.
    Last edited by Monk; 30-06-2013 at 06:04 PM.

  14. #104
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Adjustment made accordingly.

  15. #105
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    I make that;

    First XI
    01. Jack Hobbs
    02. Len Hutton
    03. Don Bradman
    04. Brian Lara
    05. Viv Richards
    06. Garry Sobers
    07. Adam Gilchrist
    08. Imran Khan
    09. Richard Hadlee
    10. Malcolm Marshall
    11. Shane Warne

    Second XI
    01. Sunil Gavaskar
    02. Barry Richards
    03. Walter Hammond
    04. Sachin Tendulkar
    05. Graeme Pollock
    06. Greg Chappell
    07. Alan Knott
    08. Dennis Lillee
    09. Curtly Ambrose
    10. Muttiah Muralitheran
    11. Glenn McGrath

    (Note: Herbert Sutcliffe gained more points than Greg Chappell, but he was not included as there was no remaining opener's spot)

    Third XI
    01. WG Grace
    02. Herbert Sutcliffe
    03. George Headley
    04. Jacques Kallis
    05. Ricky Ponting
    06. Keith Miller
    07. Clyde Walcott
    08. Wasim Akram
    09. Fred Trueman
    10. Bill O'Reilly
    11. Sydney Barnes

    (Note: Clyde Walcott was probably selected as a pure batsman, but gets the keeper's spot by default ahead of Sangakkara)

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