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Bradman- status as the greatest batsman ever under threat?

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watson

Banned
You can't compare the peer average with the adjusted average, because the adjusted average already accounts for the peer average when it is calculated - that's how it is "adjusted" in the first place. The adjusted average is the only number you need. So Bradman ends up 41% ahead of Sobers and 47% ahead of Hobbs. And well over 50% ahead of anyone else.
If you are right (as I suspect you are) then it appears that the author has made a howler when he states that -
Sobers, whose adjusted average is a magnificent 73.75 (73.04), between 1958 and 1968 is in second place. It is the first time a player, over a long period of 10 years, comes within 30% of Bradman.
However, there is nothing mathematically wrong with calculating a ratio between Bradman and his Peers, and Sobers/Hobbs and their Peers, and then comparing the ratios - as I have done. And it really doesn't matter whether you choose the 'Adjusted Averages' or the actual Averages as the adjustment was minor for both Bradman and Sobers.
 
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The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
If you are right (as I suspect you are) then it appears that the author has made a howler when he states that -
Ha ha, not technically a howler, just a different perspective and possibly a little disingenuous.

Basically, in the same way that: 80 is 20% less than 100, but 100 is 25% more than 80...

…in this case we have: Sobers' average is 29% less than Bradman's. But Bradman's average is 41% more than Sobers'.

So it is correct to say that Sobers' average is within 30% of Bradman's - it’s just also correct to say that Bradman's average is over 40% ahead of Sobers!
 

watson

Banned
Ha ha, not technically a howler, just a different perspective and possibly a little disingenuous.

Basically, in the same way that: 80 is 20% less than 100, but 100 is 25% more than 80...

…in this case we have: Sobers' average is 29% less than Bradman's. But Bradman's average is 41% more than Sobers'.

So it is correct to say that Sobers' average is within 30% of Bradman's - it’s just also correct to say that Bradman's average is over 40% ahead of Sobers!
Is a cal.factor of 1.41 (103.93 / 73.75 = 1.41, or 73.75 x 1.41 = 103.75) really the same as saying 41% better/ahead though? I have a hunch that it's you being disingenuous (??)

To my way of thinking it is more semantically accurate to say that Sobers is 71% as good as Bradman, or logically, 29% worse (73.75 / 103.93 = 0.71).

I'm not a statistician so I like to learn.
 
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The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, it makes sense - if you have 141 cricket books and I have only 100, then you have 41% more cricket books than I do.

As you say though, if I wanted to make myself look a little better or your superiority appear somewhat less, I could say that I have 71% as many cricket books as you do.

At the risk of copping a ban for boring the hell out of the rest of the forum, I reckon I'll leave it there.
 

watson

Banned
Yeah, it makes sense - if you have 141 cricket books and I have only 100, then you have 41% more cricket books than I do.

As you say though, if I wanted to make myself look a little better or your superiority appear somewhat less, I could say that I have 71% as many cricket books as you do.

At the risk of copping a ban for boring the hell out of the rest of the forum, I reckon I'll leave it there.
Sorry what was that again? I just woke-up.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
1st para and 3rd para: Yes there is. You compare the records of teams. I wasn't comparing the no.1 team from the old era with the no.4 team from this era. I compared old era SA and the WI to mod era SL. I checked records and stats to back the comparison. It showed SL, common with modern sides and players, rec'd a great benefit from playing minnows more often and top sides less often. When you equalise for the discrepancy old era SA and WI were better bowling sides. Mod SL the better batting side.
Once again falling in to the trap of relativity. The above only hold water, ONLY if the quality of cricket played was similar. A 1st from the grade 5 not necessarily be better than a 4th from grade 8. Unless you show me an absolute measure how to compare teams across different eras, your argument is empty.

I checked all 3 teams series results against the top 2 teams of both eras. SL and SA managed series wins but both lost to Aus.
If I am not mistaken SL has a series win against AUS when they were at the top of their powers.
There is no distinction btwn SA then and SL now.
Great imagination, but I don't agree.

The WI then were a class below but not minnows as they won tests. Their batting was reliant on Headley. No more than Viru era WI were on Lara. Their bowling was distinctly better. Conclusion: the WI then can't be rated lower than the Viru era WI. Therefore a middle ranking team.
Chanderpaul was a rabbit it looks like!

2nd para. I'm not responsible for your analogies. I can only test them. No matter which way you look at it Sehwag's record against middling and weaker sides is 3 times lower than DGB's. Against the best opponents, in approximately the same no of innings, DGB's aver is twice as good. I reviewed your claim that Sehwag could have averaged Bradmanesque figures against cherry picked opponents. The stats show you to be wrong.
Meh! Still doesn't understand the point. This applies if only IND, PAK, SL and BAN played cricket and Sehwag playing in such an environment. You could make a similar assumption about Hussey as well. When no others play cricket, PAK or SL is the BEST opponet for Sehwag in such a world.

4th para. There is a correlation btwn the 2 levels of cricket. When a players test record out strips his fc record we all comment on the discrepancy. Either way its unimportant. You'd expect the argument you propose, that the greater the no of opponents the less likely a batter will average 90-100 to also hold for FC cricket, if it wasn't fundamentally fallacious. DGB's record in FC cricket proves it is fallacious.
Lets agree to disagree on this. Being a superman in FCC doesn't mean the same thing in tests. On the other hand player like Sangakkara, who loves Aussie conditions more than his home, averages 36 in FCC, but averages 55 in test matches.

I don't care abt your opinion on Bradman and wasn't offering commentary. I was reviewing your comment on Sehwag's av and checking it against his record. From that we can ask whether Sehwag could emulate Bradman or the other way around. To do that you must answer yes to either of these questions:
Sehwag will be Bradman, if he only played against Pakistan and minnows and other teams were not existant.

After averaging 52 against middling and weak teams do you think Sehwag could av 170 over 70 innings v Aus and SA to bring his overall ave to 99.94? In Bradman's time do you think NZ, or SL, Pak, Zim and BD if they existed as test playing nations,could inflict 72 successive ducks on DGB to bring his ave down to 49?
I must be speaking to a stupid wall. Does not understand the context at all.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
It does amuse me the way this subject polarises opinion,and particularly the way that folk who I assume are essentially intelligent human beings come out with such mindless drivel.

I'll admit to being in the "Bradman" camp, but not because I particularly like him, but because of his dominance over 20 years - yes that's 20 years - and he lost seven good years to the war - - his stats are so far ahead of his peers that it defies logic to compare his dominance with guys whose stats are very similar to at least half a dozen of their contemporaries.

If he played today I think the biggest problem Bradman would have would be with the quality of fielding. Piercing the gaps in the field was one of his great talents, and he'd find that harder, but then he'd have a much better bat, so perhaps that wouldn't matter.

He'd also have had to face more genuinely quick bowlers, and its said he didn't like real pace. But that's a silly argument really, 'cos what he didn't like to do was risk injury. The speed of his reactions and his hand/eye co-ordination were always superlative, so with all the modern protective equipment I reckon he'd have come off best against the quicks, like he did against Larwood in 1930.

And the change he'd have liked most would be covered wickets. His weakness on sticky wickets is overstated, if only because they cut everyone down to size, but it was undoubtedly the major flaw in his CV - he was no Sutcliffe - but he'd never encounter one now, so his biggest problem would be gone.

And don't forget Bradman was adaptable too - the biggest law change in his time was in the lbw law - a whole new aspect of the game opened up once bowlers no longer had to pitch the ball in line to get a decision. Bradman played just about exactly half his career under the old law and half under the new - he was out lbw 16 times pre 1935, and 11 times after, so he sorted that one out without any trouble - the suggestion that he wouldn't have adapted his technique to other changes is just ludicrous.

As awesome as this post was, Fred, this is like perfume wasted in a toilet debate.. :)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
You could easily find 10 excellent non-consecutive years in Lara's career. But the years 1996, 2000, and 2002 weren't very good and interrupt the flow.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

That''s the issue with choosing random 10 year periods and that is why comparing over a career is actually better unless the question or topic is about a specific time period.. You can easily make 10 year lists and not have Lara but only an idiot would not have him as amongst the best batsmen of those years... Juz another folly about using stats selectively to suit arguments than doing it the other way around..
 

MrPrez

International Debutant
Bradman is the greatest ever purely because, as Fred said, he was so far ahead of his contemporaries.

Arguments about there only being two teams are just ridiculous. If it was so much easier when facing only one team, why didn't we see greater inequalities in averages? Why didn't we see guys regularly averaging 75+?

He was obviously a class above. A few classes above, anyway. In close on 100 years, noone dominated statistically anywhere near as much as he did. In all that time Tests were pretty much Eng vs Aus, with a few flavour Tests on the side. Whereas at least 4 other batsmen have been at the level of Tendulkar over the same time frame that he played.
 

watson

Banned
Yeah, it makes sense - if you have 141 cricket books and I have only 100, then you have 41% more cricket books than I do.

As you say though, if I wanted to make myself look a little better or your superiority appear somewhat less, I could say that I have 71% as many cricket books as you do.

At the risk of copping a ban for boring the hell out of the rest of the forum, I reckon I'll leave it there.
Putting aside Bradman and Sobers for a minute I still need to understand what is going on mathematically here. This maybe boring to some, but it's actually quite to interesting to me.

What you saying is that there has been a 41% increase in X over Y. However, this increase does not represent the absolute difference between X and Y because it is only a relative increase.

The only way to express the true difference in absolute terms is to set X as the 'Standard' and call it 1. We can now arrive at a 'true' ratio and therefore make a direct comparison between X and Y.

Therefore, if X = 1 and Y = 0.71 (a ratio of 1 : 0.7) then the absolute difference is 0.29 (or 29%). In approximate, but absolute terms, X is a 'third better' than Y.


(And in the case of Bradman and Sobers, it makes 'intuitive sense' to call Bradman a 'third better' than Sobers as this is about what I would expect with respect to the talents and effectiveness of the two batsman)
 
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the big bambino

International Captain
It does amuse me the way this subject polarises opinion,and particularly the way that folk who I assume are essentially intelligent human beings come out with such mindless drivel.

I'll admit to being in the "Bradman" camp, but not because I particularly like him, but because of his dominance over 20 years - yes that's 20 years - and he lost seven good years to the war - - his stats are so far ahead of his peers that it defies logic to compare his dominance with guys whose stats are very similar to at least half a dozen of their contemporaries.

If he played today I think the biggest problem Bradman would have would be with the quality of fielding. Piercing the gaps in the field was one of his great talents, and he'd find that harder, but then he'd have a much better bat, so perhaps that wouldn't matter.

He'd also have had to face more genuinely quick bowlers, and its said he didn't like real pace. But that's a silly argument really, 'cos what he didn't like to do was risk injury. The speed of his reactions and his hand/eye co-ordination were always superlative, so with all the modern protective equipment I reckon he'd have come off best against the quicks, like he did against Larwood in 1930.

And the change he'd have liked most would be covered wickets. His weakness on sticky wickets is overstated, if only because they cut everyone down to size, but it was undoubtedly the major flaw in his CV - he was no Sutcliffe - but he'd never encounter one now, so his biggest problem would be gone.

And don't forget Bradman was adaptable too - the biggest law change in his time was in the lbw law - a whole new aspect of the game opened up once bowlers no longer had to pitch the ball in line to get a decision. Bradman played just about exactly half his career under the old law and half under the new - he was out lbw 16 times pre 1935, and 11 times after, so he sorted that one out without any trouble - the suggestion that he wouldn't have adapted his technique to other changes is just ludicrous.

Agree with the general consensus on this post. I agree the biggest challenge is the std of fielding, a point raised by Norman Gordon the SA pace bowler of the era. If your std is Larwood then the comment abt quick bowling would be true as it would be about Tyson in the 50s or Thommo later on. Bowlers of that speed are rare though and a more representative std would be bowlers of the Statham, Constantine pace in which case they were well represented in the 27-49 era. As per the list of bowlers I mentioned in an earlier post. I didn't mention Eddie Gilbert in that post but will now. He could be likened to Shaun Tait for a modern reference though I think Gilbert the better bowler of the 2 inspite of Tait having played tests. Gilbert could atleast contest a FC match, something beyond Tait.

The sticky wicket issue is a problematic one for me and I have an inkling Bradman used it as an excuse to explain away some of his failures. Late in life he admitted the pitch on which Verity won a test for England wasn't as difficult as he had previously insisted and generously rated it one of the finer bowling exhibitions in ashes tests.
 
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Dan

Hall of Fame Member
I must be speaking to a stupid wall. Does not understand the context at all.

Look, I'm sick of this - both of you, play the post - not the poster. No problems with the debate itself, but attacking and insulting each other is not on.

Last warning for this thread. Next person who does it is getting infracted and the thread closed.
...

Feels like I'm the one talking to a brick wall here, given this got ignored so quickly. Don't say I didn't warn you.
 
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