Who is the most overated player from the subcontinent, ever?

[watson]

So if people have Kumble in the same pack as them you believe he is overrated, as you think he's clearly below them?

Interesting viewpoint. Don't mind it, even if I disagree.

Yes, Kumble is clearly 'below' Chandra and Prasanna IMO. And possibly Bedi.

The main reason being that Chandra and Prasanna both had successful overseas tours. Chandra dominated the 1971 series in England against Illingsworth's team, and Prasanna was the outstanding bowler during the 1967/68 series in Australia. There is nothing similar in Kumble's CV that I can find. Although I'm happy to be corrected.

 

[the big bambino]

Our squad recently dusted 4 blot are collectively the worst to go to the sub con.

From the sub con,,,hmmm. Using jono's definition that you can be great and over rated, I nominate Gavaskar for the supermanning of his record v WI.

 

[watson]

Our squad recently dusted 4 blot are collectively the worst to go to the sub con.

From the sub con,,,hmmm. Using jono's definition that you can be great and over rated, I nominate Gavaskar for the supermanning of his record v WI.

Yeah, that's a tricky one with good arguments from both sides.

Just checked on Statsguru. Gavaskar and Michael Holding played against eachother in 15 Test matches (1976-1983). Gavaskar scored 1135 runs at 45.40 with 5 centuries during those Test matches.

To my mind that isn't bad. My only real criticism is that Gavaskar seemed to be inconsistent - he either scored not much, or very big. But could Hobbs and Hutton have done any better in the same circumstances? Probably not as I can't imagine an opening batsman with a straighter defensive bat, and a better hook/pull-shot. Then there was that cover-drive down on one knee.....

 

[Howe_zat]

Yeah, that's a tricky one with good arguments from both sides.

Just checked on Statsguru. Gavaskar and Michael Holding played against eachother in 15 Test matches (1976-1983). Gavaskar scored 1135 runs at 45.40 with 5 centuries during those Test matches.

To my mind that isn't bad. My only real criticism is that Gavaskar seemed to be inconsistent - he either scored not much, or very big. But could Hobbs and Hutton have done any better in the same circumstances? Probably not as I can't imagine an opening batsman with a straighter defensive bat, and a better hook/pull-shot. Then there was that cover-drive down on one knee.....

Gavaskar's record against the Windies is often cited as evidence of him conquering their best ever (probably the best ever) pace battery, but it's actually quite misleading because of how often he scored against them either before that pace attack came through or when they were at WSC.

Edit: story given in detail here

 

[watson]

Gavaskar's record against the Windies is often cited as evidence of him conquering their best ever (probably the best ever) pace battery, but it's actually quite misleading because of how often he scored against them either before that pace attack came through or when they were at WSC.

Edit: story given in detail here

I would have to question the quality of the article. I think that it's exaggerating its main point and being overly picky;

According to Statsguru;

Holding AND Roberts V Gavaskar
Tests = 9 (1976-83, 7 in the WI)
Ave = 53.07
100s = 3
Runs = 690

Holding AND Marshall V Gavaskar
Test = 11 (1983, 5 in the WI)
Ave = 41.38
100s = 3
Runs = 745

Holding AND Roberts AND Marshall V Gavaskar
Tests = 7 (1983, 5 in the WI)
Ave = 49.60
100s = 2
Runs = 496

 

[Furball]

Yes, Kumble is clearly 'below' Chandra and Prasanna IMO. And possibly Bedi.

The main reason being that Chandra and Prasanna both had successful overseas tours. Chandra dominated the 1971 series in England against Illingsworth's team, and Prasanna was the outstanding bowler during the 1967/68 series in Australia. There is nothing similar in Kumble's CV that I can find. Although I'm happy to be corrected.

Australia 2003/04 immediately springs to mind for Kumble.

 

[the big bambino]

The article is pretty spot on. His 1st series was against the WI in transition. His 2nd saw him play only Roberts. His 3rd series saw him score a ton against Holding and Roberts and another against Holding and 3 spinners. Both hundreds came at Port of Spain, the friendliest batting pitch in the WI then. Incidentally his 2nd hundred in this series was the occasion that convinced Lloyd to adopt the 4 pace men strategy.

The next series was against a 2nd string WI side. He scored big.

Then a poor series against the WI at full strength for the 1st time in his career. One century in a meaningless rain effected match.

Then his last series. Given the quality of opposition, his best. He made 121 v Holding, Marshall and Daniel. Then in his last test his legendary 236 v Marshall, Roberts and Holding.

Therefore 4 hundreds only were scored against a side approaching the best the WI could offer. Yet one of those was on flat Port of Spain against 2 of the pace pack; not 4.

Another was in a fixture made meaningless by rain. Can't imagine the WI being amped for that.

The third of the 4 against Marshall Holding and Daniel. Very good but not the best they've fielded. The last was against Marshall and Holding but a perhaps past it Roberts.

On that I'd say their has been an embellishment of the record though no doubt he was a great player and no one could have opened and done much or any better.

 

[Maximas]

Yeah Kumble was the only bowler to average under 30 with the ball in the 2003/04 Aus series, 12/279 at Sydney was magnificent.

 

[Arachnodouche]

The article is pretty spot on. His 1st series was against the WI in transition. His 2nd saw him play only Roberts. His 3rd series saw him score a ton against Holding and Roberts and another against Holding and 3 spinners. Both hundreds came at Port of Spain, the friendliest batting pitch in the WI then. Incidentally his 2nd hundred in this series was the occasion that convinced Lloyd to adopt the 4 pace men strategy.

The next series was against a 2nd string WI side. He scored big.

Then a poor series against the WI at full strength for the 1st time in his career. One century in a meaningless rain effected match.

Then his last series. Given the quality of opposition, his best. He made 121 v Holding, Marshall and Daniel. Then in his last test his legendary 236 v Marshall, Roberts and Holding.

Therefore 4 hundreds only were scored against a side approaching the best the WI could offer. Yet one of those was on flat Port of Spain against 2 of the pace pack; not 4.

Another was in a fixture made meaningless by rain. Can't imagine the WI being amped for that.

The third of the 4 against Marshall Holding and Daniel. Very good but not the best they've fielded. The last was against Marshall and Holding but a perhaps past it Roberts.

On that I'd say their has been an embellishment of the record though no doubt he was a great player and no one could have opened and done much or any better.

I don't see too many applying the same level of nitpicking to Sangakkara's (and Jayawardene's) careers. There's my pick for the most overrated ever from the SC.

 

[Arachnodouche]

Yeah Kumble was the only bowler to average under 30 with the ball in the 2003/04 Aus series, 12/279 at Sydney was magnificent.

Didn't make for pleasant viewing though. The wickets just piled up by the end of the game but it was an obscenely high scoring match wasn't it?

 

[Jono]

Surely that makes his performance even better? That track was ridiculously flat, and to average less than 24 over the course of the match was great. Yes he didn't run through the Aussie batting lineup, but I don't think it was possible for any bowler other than an all-time great to run through a batting lineup on that deck.

 

[Howe_zat]

I don't see too many applying the same level of nitpicking to Sangakkara's (and Jayawardene's) careers.

That's remarkably inattentive of you tbh. Be surprised if there's a thread about either that doesn't point out the home track dominance.

 

[Dan]

Surely that makes his performance even better? That track was ridiculously flat, and to average less than 24 over the course of the match was great. Yes he didn't run through the Aussie batting lineup, but I don't think it was possible for any bowler other than an all-time great to run through a batting lineup on that deck.

Agree with Jono here. With batsmen, the ability to make 'ugly' runs and grind out scores in unfavourable conditions or when they're completely out of form is seen as an asset. Same should go for bowlers, I would imagine.

 

[bagapath]

I don't think Imran was the greatest fast bowler ever or that Gavaskar was the best batter in history; but cases could be made for them as the greatest fast bowling allrounder and as the best opening batsman of all time; and on certain days, it is possible to crown them with those titles too, ahead of Miller and Hobbs/ Hutton. They are definitely not overrated in their departments.

To some extent Sachin, Akram, Sanga and Zaheer are overrated. Abbas especially is a good catch. Only CW guys can come up with something smart like this.

In my opinion, though, Abdul Qadir is the most overrated cricketer from the SC. It pisses me off when people rank him alongside Chandra or Kumble - leave alone Warne. His role was significant, in that he kept the art of leg spin going when the whole world relied on pace. But, at the end of the day, he was pathetic outside Pakistan and remained profligate throughout his career. Definitely not worthy of the tag of greatness around his neck.

 

[Arachnodouche]

Agree with Jono here. With batsmen, the ability to make 'ugly' runs and grind out scores in unfavourable conditions or when they're completely out of form is seen as an asset. Same should go for bowlers, I would imagine.

Not quite the equivalent, IMO. A batsman can afford to take ages to compile a knock; 5 day games generally provide that much leeway and someone like Cook can thrive in that scenario and even come to be hugely treasured by his side. But bowlers can't be giving away 300 runs for a ten wicket haul all the time. It's an interesting debate tbh; a bowler taking wickets while leaking runs or a batsman taking ten hours to make 200.

 

[Top_Cat]

Fairly simple for mine, depends on the state of the game and your teams needs. Kumble bowled brilliantly but the deck was just too good for him to put long-term pressure on and I doubt there's a bowler alive who could have seriously stressed such strong batting line-ups. The only reason the Sydney game was in any way close was because the Aussies had a fleeting dart at the total. They could just as easily have decided to dead-bat the game with a couple of easy tons, was still that good for batting on day 5.

 

[Teja.]

Gavaskar didn't run like god against the WI at their peak as his prima facie average indicates but he was pretty ****ing good nonetheless even against the ATG bowlers if you don't nitpick the one game where all four played or something equally ridiculous.

I actually think he's slightly underrated as a test bat in comparison to Tendulkar.

 

[watson]

Australia 2003/04 immediately springs to mind for Kumble.

Pleasantly surprised by Kumble's excellent stat's for the series because my chief memories from the contest are a stack of big scores by Ponting, Hayden, and Langer. Dravid and Laxman also made a lot of runs for India.

Have to have a rethink.

 

[Coronis]

Tendulkar. Easy.

 

[fredfertang]

How's he overrated? He was a great bowler, and he is discussed with other great bowlers.

Never been convinced by Wasim - decent player an' all that, but based on what he did for Lancs, no ATG