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Thread: **Official** New Zealand Domestic Season 2013/2014

  1. #166
    State 12th Man Immenso's Avatar
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    I actually dont think its a major problem (the recent retirements). Apart from the young wellington outliers, it is people retiring at an age i would exoect.

    It was much worse 10 or so years ago when players were retiring in late 20s -e.g. Brooke Walker etc

    We've had a few retirements of domestic legends the last 2 seasons; Cumming, Sinclair, Mason, Marshall. But for me, who had started to get used to the late 20s retirements, the fact we had such a huge number of experience and accomplished old pros on the circuit the last few years means that it has changed for the better.

    The domestic contracts/retainers has IMO been one of the best changes by NZC in that last decade. IMO domestic cricket has gotten so much stronger than the late90 /early 00s because of this. And what happens in domestic cricket will flow into the national side about 5 years later. I'm quite positive about improvements to NZ domestic cricket (contacts, pitches) flowing into improved Blackcaps performance over the next decade.

    It is a bit of a problem though, don't know how it is 'solved'. I genuinely do wish our domestic players were paid well. The retainers sometimes make their salaries look worse than they are as the retainers are published but the appearance fees don't get often reported and it is harder to try and add up/estimate how much they are paid.

    It is a great opportunity for guys who are students, might take a little longer to complete a degree though.

    Earlier than this pro and semi-pro eras - say up to the early 90s - when NZ domestic cricket was basically amateur and the season shorter it wasn't much of a problem, players hung around. But the season is now professional length but semi-pro wages.
    Last edited by Immenso; 28-07-2013 at 04:09 AM.
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  2. #167
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Dan, great article. I have a few comments from an editing perspective.

    "New Zealand cricket is losing some of its most promising youngsters and most experienced heads at a time when they need all the promise and experience they can get"

    New Zealand cricket is losing players from promising youngsters to experienced veterans at a time when they need all of the promise and experience available.

    "If he wished, he had multiple seasons left in him"

    Given that form and fitness were not an issue, it is likely that he could have continued playing for a number of seasons.

    re: Reece Young: I'd like to add it in that he was widely considered one of the best domestic keepers in terms of his pure wicketkeeping skills (i.e. not including batting).

    and the pay system, you could possibly include the pay scale:
    The domestic contracts range in salary from $39,000 for the top-ranked player down to $19,000 for No 14.
    (source)

  3. #168
    International Regular Kippax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immenso View Post
    I actually dont think its a major problem (the recent retirements). Apart from the young wellington outliers, it is people retiring at an age i would exoect.

    It was much worse 10 or so years ago when players were retiring in late 20s -e.g. Brooke Walker etc

    We've had a few retirements of domestic legends the last 2 seasons; Cumming, Sinclair, Mason, Marshall. But for me, who had started to get used to the late 20s retirements, the fact we had such a huge number of experience and accomplished old pros on the circuit the last few years means that it has changed for the better.

    The domestic contracts/retainers has IMO been one of the best changes by NZC in that last decade. IMO domestic cricket has gotten so much stronger than the late90 /early 00s because of this. And what happens in domestic cricket will flow into the national side about 5 years later. I'm quite positive about improvements to NZ domestic cricket (contacts, pitches) flowing into improved Blackcaps performance over the next decade.

    Yeah, less sold on that than some. The Alex Taits and Andrew Schwasses not averaging low 20s was an important step, but teams being flummoxed when asked how they'll keep Colin Munro to an average under 124 is a pretty desperate definition of improvement in many ways. 360/5 at stumps looks better than 150 plays 90/4, but to use a snooker analogy, there's rarely any table awareness on show to get the century breaks if we're honest. More often it resembles a couple of chancers coming in late and potting all the balls left on the lips from a pretty god-awful game of pool.

    Andrew de Boorder would be another pretty sharp guy who's presumably dumped his shares in cricket while the loss was still one he could stomach. The smart money in particular is still dumping and selling short, which is never good.
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  4. #169
    International Vice-Captain Mike5181's Avatar
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    This wouldn't be far off the strongest I've seen our bowlers in the PS

    Wheeler
    Milne
    Small
    Henry
    Bracewell
    Gillespie
    Arnel
    Butler
    Aldridge
    Bartlett

    When they're available:
    Southee
    Boult
    Wagner


  5. #170
    International Regular Kippax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike5181 View Post
    This wouldn't be far off the strongest I've seen our bowlers in the PS

    Wheeler
    Milne
    Small
    Henry
    Bracewell
    Gillespie
    Arnel
    Butler
    Aldridge
    Bartlett

    When they're available:
    Southee
    Boult
    Wagner
    Yeah but how many of these guys are sort of the Helen Flanagans of pace bowling, will they just produce clips that would make a good gif here and there and then just get infuriatingly dumb after a while. Stay on the park and stop Gareth Andrew and Munro from making massive tons that humiliate your province if you're so good.
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  6. #171
    International Captain straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kippax View Post
    Yeah but how many of these guys are sort of the Helen Flanagans of pace bowling, will they just produce clips that would make a good gif here and there and then just get infuriatingly dumb after a while. Stay on the park and stop Gareth Andrew and Munro from making massive tons that humiliate your province if you're so good.
    They're just playing the long game Kippax - eventually Auckland through a combination of desperation and a false sense of security will move Munro to opener. Problem solved - won't score another run.

    Opposition bowlers will celebrate while four or five wickets fall, before the next lower-order biffer or nurdler finds it all too easy against the 30-overs-old ball and averages a hundred through the season.

    This is a long way of saying you make a fair point.

  7. #172
    State 12th Man Immenso's Avatar
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    Kippax.

    I do recognise your point you are making. Is it ‘better’ or just ‘different’. Is a hairy arsed chancer like Munro and CBF Jesse smacking run-a-ball centuries any better than dibbly-dobblies like Tait and Schwass averaging mid teens with the ball.

    I’m in the glass half full camp, as I think NZC have more closely replicated the norms of international cricket (basically ‘flat’ pitches) which will produce players who are suited to that environment. At the moment IMO it is producing the raw material in the bowlers (but they are still very raw) and once that change has matured then it will demand more from the batsmen and we will see less of the Munro and Nicol and Ingram domination.

    I think it’s logical that if a change is made, then that change will result in a reaction. I think this ‘reaction’ has been the promotion of more skilful bowlers. I admit that my theory that these better bowlers will eventually also flow into better batsmen may be a bit hopeful. Maybe the combination of better bowlers but also better pitches will just mean the quality of batting will flatline. Which is depressing as, I had a “what is the point” moment during our Lords collapse.

    I think the major weakness in the structure at the moment is the provincial 2nd XI system. In particular bowlers promoted temporarily into the Plunket Shield circuit are woefully under prepared in terms of physical and mental stamina to bowl to a hairy chancers at the end of a long day. This ‘weak 2nd XI theory’ plus the current good crop of bowlers still being so young is my straw to grasp while the Munros thrash hundreds.

    I’m also in the glass half full camp as I see the provincial contracts making a huge change to the quality of domestic cricket. So really - I have the opposite view to the article by Dan.

    Back to Dan’s article.
    10 or even 5 years ago I never would have envisaged the Plunket Shield being dotted with so many veterans as has been the case the last 2 seasons. Players who are either see-sawing on and off the central contract list like; Sinclair, Gillespie, Arnel, Franklin, Redmond, Elliot, McKay. Or are a fair way below the central contract contention - or had been out of central contracts for a few years, like; J Marshall, Mason, Aldridge, Butler, McIntosh, Hopkins, Parlane. Even J McMiilan and McSkimming.

    Add in H Marshall and A Adams & Styris with their occasional appearances fitted within their Kopak/Euro/County cricket commitments. The place has been relatively oozing experience these last few years.

    The two young Wellington guys have given up the game completely even at club level – that is not a financial decision. That is falling out of love with it all. A de Boorder would have been a better example, although he was still available, but just not available to sign the contract which would commit him to 7 months of inflexibility when he wanted to put a bit more focus on work/study.

    McGlashen’s was a fairly understandable response to Watling getting fast tracked. R Young was also a farily understandable response to his rapid blackcaps demotion. Both early 30s, and seeing the road ahead was gradual decline.

    Sinclair retiring at 37 is not a moment for lament or suprise, it’s a moment to celebrate the most experienced domestic cricketer in our history’s fantastic career.
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  8. #173
    International Regular Kippax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kippax View Post
    Stay on the park and stop Gareth Andrew and Munro from making massive tons
    Nick Beard, Kugglejuggle, Ronchi every second innings....

    Cricket Records | Plunket Shield, 2012/13 | Records | High scores | ESPN Cricinfo

  9. #174
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    Opposition bowlers will celebrate while four or five wickets fall, before the next lower-order biffer or nurdler finds it all too easy against the 30-overs-old ball and averages a hundred through the season
    another shout for the Duke ball

  10. #175
    State 12th Man Immenso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    another shout for the Duke ball
    5 rounds with the Duke and 5 rounds with the Kookaburra would give a rounded 'education'.

    Outside the box thinking from Buchana.. I mean from Immenso

  11. #176
    International Captain straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    another shout for the Duke ball
    I know this was an off-the-cuff comment but no - there might be other good reasons to introduce a Duke ball but making it so our domestic bowlers don't need to learn how to bowl with an old ball is surely not one of them.

  12. #177
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    meh, old ball skills are best learnt at international level anyway. NZ domestic batsmen just don't have the ability to help develop our old ball bowlers. There's never been a NZ bowler straight from domestic cricket who had old ball skills at the international level.

    domestic old ball skills = chucking a wide long hop that the batsman tries to hit too hard and spoons to a fielder

    international old ball skills = very tight stump-to-stump line, reverse swing, occasional slower ball.

    Jimmy Anderson used to be awful with the old ball and now he's excellent. I don't care if a new strike bowler comes in and can't do anything with the old ball. That's the way it is right now anyway. We are heavily reliant on the new cherry and that's ok. It's our strength, we may as well make the most of it.
    Last edited by hendrix; 28-07-2013 at 11:52 PM.
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  13. #178
    International Regular Kippax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    another shout for the Duke ball
    Yeah the Duke's business case is getting traction in even Australia, so it's not fanciful at all. Dukes seem to be really pushing ruthlessly for greater market share the last couple of years or so (the high Aussie dollar no doubt hurting Kookaburra).

    If a country says a certain aspect doesn't stand up to their conditions, Dukes will change the composition slightly to suit.

    'We won't exist': Kookaburra bemoans cricket ball change proposal | Newcastle Herald

    Eagle Sport (poor grammar from this guy, but anyway)
    Last edited by Kippax; 29-07-2013 at 06:20 AM.

  14. #179
    International Vice-Captain Mike5181's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kippax View Post
    Yeah but how many of these guys are sort of the Helen Flanagans of pace bowling, will they just produce clips that would make a good gif here and there and then just get infuriatingly dumb after a while. Stay on the park and stop Gareth Andrew and Munro from making massive tons that humiliate your province if you're so good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kippax View Post
    Nick Beard, Kugglejuggle, Ronchi every second innings....

    Cricket Records | Plunket Shield, 2012/13 | Records | High scores | ESPN Cricinfo
    You're always going to get random guys scoring runs occasionally. It's cricket, it happens. A 19 year old scored 98 against the second best bowling attack in the world just a few weeks ago. But half of those aren't even relevant.

    Kuggeleijn 142*:

    Trego
    Lamb
    Badenhorst
    Patel
    Mathiewson

    Munro's 269*:

    Gillespie
    Woakes
    Hutchinson
    Kuggeleijn
    Elliot
    Boam

    Beard's 188:

    Ferguson
    Bates
    CdG
    Singh
    B Martin

    Andrew's 180:

    C Martin
    K Mills
    CdG
    B Martin
    Singh

    And recent ODI performances aside, Ronchi's hardly a shunt.

  15. #180
    International Regular Kippax's Avatar
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    I know they're young and some research claims it all settles down after 25 etc., but 'stay on the park to prevent your province being humiliated' was part of what I said.

    Ukyo Katayama was 'good' enough to pull off some hilariously reckless passing moves, but it's fair to say he didn't have a career his F1 teams will look back on with great fondness.
    Last edited by Kippax; 29-07-2013 at 12:39 AM.



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