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Thread: CW All Time Country XI Discussion Thread

  1. #16
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I reckon part of picking an ATG team is expecting them to play in all conditions in all eras, not just on modern covered wickets. So having O'Reilly and Warne bowling on a sticky or whatever in the olden days is an intimidating thought.

    I agree with your team if the venue was the WACA in the 80s, I'd make two changes though.

    Trumper - Morris - Bradman - Chappell - Ponting - Harvey - Gilchrist - Lindwall - Warne- Lillee - McGrath
    I don't think that having O'Reilly and Warne in the same team is a liability on any pitch. Leg-spinners tend to like a bit of extra bounce so O'Reilly and Warne would even do well at the WACA. Also, Viv Richards would like them less than Lillee and McGrath as he was more skilled at playing fast bowling.

    In fact, I'm more concerned about how Trumper and Morris would go fending off Marshall/Ambrose/Garner/Holding at the WACA. As a guess I don't think that they'd last very long, although Trumper would fair better than Morris I think. This is because a pair of fast bowlers operating at both ends would be a completely foreign experience, and a far cry from SF Barnes or Alec Bedser.

    I know that I bang on a bit about Simpson and Lawry, but they have the second best opening average after Hobbs and Sutcliffe, and they scored plenty of runs against Hall and Griffith, Trueman and Statham. Simpson also scored a lot of runs against spinners and has absolutely no worries against Bedi or any of the Indian twirly-men as his 176 against India at aged 40 indicates.

    I want full value and mega-tons from Bradman and G.Chappell, so I don't want them needlessly put under pressure from a shiny hard ball;

    Simpson-Lawry-Bradman-G.Chappell-Border-Miller-Gilchrist-Warne-Lillee-O'Reilly-McGrath
    PRE WWI
    Grace-Trumper-Hill-Taylor-Ranjitsinhji-Faulkner-Noble-Lilley-Turner-Richardson-Barnes
    PRE WWII
    Hobbs-Sutcliffe-Bradman-Hammond-Headley-Macartney-Ames-Gregory-Larwood-O'Reilly-Grimmett
    POST WWII
    Hutton-Simpson-Kanhai-Pollock-Harvey-Sobers-Waite-Benaud-Davidson-Lindwall-Trueman
    PACKER ERA
    Gavaskar-Greenidge-Richards-Chappell-Lloyd-Botham-Imran-Knott-Lillee-Holding-Underwood
    MODERN ERA
    Hayden-Langer-Ponting-Tendulkar-Lara-Kallis-Gilchrist-Marshall-Warne-Ambrose-McGrath

  2. #17
    International Regular Monk's Avatar
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    We probably have slightly differing criteria in our selections. I don't imagine how player x would cope with the pace bowling of player y and z. I know that Morris was the most complete opening batsman of his time, and I know that Trumper was the most complete batsman of his time. In my head I imagine that all the players selected would have the ability to cross eras and not be disadvantaged by the era they played in. As in the old...a champion in one era would be a champion in another idea.

    That said, Morris faced some very good bowling in his career, make no mistake about that.

    I'm as big a fan as anyone of Simpson and Lawry. But I'd prefer more attacking options in my first XI. They'd open in my second XI, no doubt.

  3. #18
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    We probably have slightly differing criteria in our selections. I don't imagine how player x would cope with the pace bowling of player y and z. I know that Morris was the most complete opening batsman of his time, and I know that Trumper was the most complete batsman of his time. In my head I imagine that all the players selected would have the ability to cross eras and not be disadvantaged by the era they played in. As in the old...a champion in one era would be a champion in another idea.

    That said, Morris faced some very good bowling in his career, make no mistake about that.

    I'm as big a fan as anyone of Simpson and Lawry. But I'd prefer more attacking options in my first XI. They'd open in my second XI, no doubt.
    Yeah, the answer always relies on the question asked.

    So I have different set of preconceived assumptions to you. Fair enough.

  4. #19
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I reckon part of picking an ATG team is expecting them to play in all conditions in all eras, not just on modern covered wickets. So having O'Reilly and Warne bowling on a sticky or whatever in the olden days is an intimidating thought.

    I agree with your team if the venue was the WACA in the 80s, I'd make two changes though.

    Trumper - Morris - Bradman - Chappell - Ponting - Harvey - Gilchrist - Lindwall - Warne- Lillee - McGrath
    Agree with the Lindwall over Miller as he was the better bowler, but I know the Miller love that exists on this thread. Harvey over Border is more questionable as Border's tougness is a good foil for the stroke players around him. So.......

    Trumper | Morris | Bradman | Chappell | Ponting | Border | Gilchrist | Lindwall | Warne | Lillee | McGrath
    Last edited by kyear2; 25-05-2013 at 06:37 PM.
    1st XI
    Hutton | Hobbs | Bradman* | Richards^ | Tendulkar | Sobers5^ | Gilchrist+ | Khan3 | Marshall1 | Warne4^ | McGrath2
    2nd XI
    Sutcliffe | Gavaskar* | Headley | Chappell^ | Lara^ | Kallis5^ | Knott+ | Hadlee3 | Ambrose2 | Lillee1 | Muralitharan4
    3rd XI
    Greenidge | Richards^ | Ponting^ | Pollock | Hammond^ | Worrell5* | Waite+ | Akram3 | Steyn1 | Holding2 | O'Reilly4
    4th XI
    Morris | Simpson^ | Sangakkara | Weekes^ | Border*^ | Walcott+ | Faulkner5 | Laker4 | Trueman1 | Garner3 | Donald2


  5. #20
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I don't think that having O'Reilly and Warne in the same team is a liability on any pitch. Leg-spinners tend to like a bit of extra bounce so O'Reilly and Warne would even do well at the WACA. Also, Viv Richards would like them less than Lillee and McGrath as he was more skilled at playing fast bowling.

    In fact, I'm more concerned about how Trumper and Morris would go fending off Marshall/Ambrose/Garner/Holding at the WACA. As a guess I don't think that they'd last very long, although Trumper would fair better than Morris I think. This is because a pair of fast bowlers operating at both ends would be a completely foreign experience, and a far cry from SF Barnes or Alec Bedser.

    I know that I bang on a bit about Simpson and Lawry, but they have the second best opening average after Hobbs and Sutcliffe, and they scored plenty of runs against Hall and Griffith, Trueman and Statham. Simpson also scored a lot of runs against spinners and has absolutely no worries against Bedi or any of the Indian twirly-men as his 176 against India at aged 40 indicates.

    I want full value and mega-tons from Bradman and G.Chappell, so I don't want them needlessly put under pressure from a shiny hard ball;

    Simpson-Lawry-Bradman-G.Chappell-Border-Miller-Gilchrist-Warne-Lillee-O'Reilly-McGrath
    People seem to forget that Headley, Lara, Sobers, Walcott and yes, even IVA were excellent players of spin. Lara scored almost all of his great innings againts Warne and Mcgrath. Headley scored hundreds on uncovered wickets againts Verity, Grimmett and Ironmonger, Viv dominated Underwood and scored hundreds in India vs the quartet. It is a myth the the W.I and in particular this line up was weak againts spin.

  6. #21
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    People seem to forget that Headley, Lara, Sobers, Walcott and yes, even IVA were excellent players of spin. Lara scored almost all of his great innings againts Warne and Mcgrath. Headley scored hundreds on uncovered wickets againts Verity, Grimmett and Ironmonger, Viv dominated Underwood and scored hundreds in India vs the quartet. It is a myth the the W.I and in particular this line up was weak againts spin.
    I wasn't saying that Richards wasn't skilled at playing spin bowling per se. Rather, I was implying that he was more at home against fast bowling.

    In other words, IMO Richards is statistically slightly more likely to get out to O'Reilly than say, McGrath (on most wickets).

  7. #22
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    I think the point is, Australia would be more likely to succeed across all pitches etc., because of the variety they have compared to the W.I. Not that those batsmen would be susceptible to spin, but that their team, with a distinct lack of spin, would not fair as well. Oh and also kyear when you say the WI team has up to 4 of the top 6 batsmen, that might be a slight overexaggeration. I myself would only place 1 of them in my top 6. Perhaps 2 depending on a daily preference.
    Last edited by Coronis; 25-05-2013 at 07:30 PM.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. R.G Pollock 5. W.R Hammond 6. G.S Sobers 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.J Procter 9. M.D Marshall 10. S.K Warne 11. G.D McGrath

  8. #23
    International Regular Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Agree with the Lindwall over Miller as he was the better bowler, but I know the Miller love that exists on this thread. Harvey over Border is more questionable as Border's tougness is a good foil for the stroke players around him. So.......

    Trumper | Morris | Bradman | Chappell | Ponting | Border | Gilchrist | Lindwall | Warne | Lillee | McGrath
    I'm probably one of Miller's biggest fans on this forum, but I will admit that it's hard to justify his selection if Lillee, McGrath and Lindwall are in the team already. But I think in a team with two spinners and two quicks, plus Bradman and Gilchrist's additional value with the bat, Miller is worth a spot in the top 6 and the team is incredibly well balanced for any conditions. With a conventional 3 quicks and 1 spinner attack, Miller probably gets left out.

    I love Border, but Harvey was as tough as Border was, and he was a more skilful attacking batsman than AB. Also, Harvey was renowned for his ability to bat on treacherous wickets. I like Border, but I'd take Harvey any day. Third batsman selected after Bradman and Chappell for me.
    Last edited by Monk; 25-05-2013 at 11:42 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I wasn't saying that Richards wasn't skilled at playing spin bowling per se. Rather, I was implying that he was more at home against fast bowling.

    In other words, IMO Richards is statistically slightly more likely to get out to O'Reilly than say, McGrath (on most wickets)
    .
    I think that is a little too simplistic putting all leg spinners into one category and all fast bowlers in another. Did Viv face any spin bowler who was similar to O'Reilly?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    I think the point is, Australia would be more likely to succeed across all pitches etc., because of the variety they have compared to the W.I. Not that those batsmen would be susceptible to spin, but that their team, with a distinct lack of spin, would not fair as well. Oh and also kyear when you say the WI team has up to 4 of the top 6 batsmen, that might be a slight overexaggeration. I myself would only place 1 of them in my top 6. Perhaps 2 depending on a daily preference.
    I think the matchup between the Oz all time teams and WI all time teams is a salavating prospect. Imagine Oreilley and Warne bowling in tandem vs Lara and Sobers. Or a MM and Ambrose steaming in vs the Don on a typical Sabina or Waca wicket. So many potential sweet matchups
    Cause Slifer said so.........!!!!

  11. #26
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    Ok, two points. The W.I initially didn't go to a All Pace attack because of a lack of spinners in the Caribbean, it was a direct and deliberate strategy that created one of the two best if not the best cricket team in the history of the game. As I have argued in other threads, there have been three superstars of the game, in order Dr Grace, Bradman and Sobers (possibly Hobbs as well), but two distinct phenomeoms that dominated the game and precipitated changes in the rules of the game to even up the field. One was Bradman's batting and the other was the Windies pace attack from 1976 - 1991. It was not by accident, but with the theory that if two fast bowlers in tandem were intimidating and difficult to face then three would be unrelenting and four would be destructive and unprecedented not only physically but psychologically as well. it was a theory actually tried twice by Hutton, but he never quite gave it sufficient attempts for it to be succesful.

    Also the thougt that the attack would be restricted in it's success on slow or unresponsive tracks are not familar with what Marshall and Holding did to India in '83, what Holding accomplised at the Oval in '76 or Marshall in Sydney in '88 or that Garner was basically used as a stock bowler to fill the role of a spinner who could bowl long spells and keep the run rate low and too was effective on all pitches and as far as opening partnerships goes, his with Marshall was statistically the greatest ever. He was also quite efficient at cleaning up the tail with his amazing yorker wihch would be effective on any wicket. This still doesn't factor in Ambrose who was even more deadly on a last day track that the first day, and his last day winning spells atg home and away are legendary. So really don't see the need for a spinner when one has three bolwers with averages under 21 and strike rates under 51 who succeeded the world over and againts everyone and each having their own distinct style and modus operandi just for the sake or percieved variety. Plus there is always Sobers if we do need a bit of variety with LH orthodox or chinamen googlys or LH fast medium swingers
    btw South Africa seems to be doing quite well with no established spinner currently and seems to have no challenger at the moment for being the best team in the world.
    Last edited by kyear2; 26-05-2013 at 12:26 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    I think that is a little too simplistic putting all leg spinners into one category and all fast bowlers in another. Did Viv face any spin bowler who was similar to O'Reilly?
    There weren't too many 'fast' leg-spinners around in the 70s/80s. However, Chandra took his wicket on 4 occasions - 3 times in the 1974/75 series and once in 1976.

    HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

    What that means I'm not sure. However, we can be sure that O'Reilly would present Richards with a new set of complex problems to solve. Where McGrath would be familiar (fastish and hitting the top of the off-stump is nothing new), O'Reilly's "nasty" leg-spinner bowled at medium pace, and varied with the occasional top-spinner or googly, would cause at least some confusion to the West Indian batsman to say the least. Ergo, he's more likely to pick up his wicket IMO

  13. #28
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    I think the point is, Australia would be more likely to succeed across all pitches etc., because of the variety they have compared to the W.I. Not that those batsmen would be susceptible to spin, but that their team, with a distinct lack of spin, would not fair as well. Oh and also kyear when you say the WI team has up to 4 of the top 6 batsmen, that might be a slight overexaggeration. I myself would only place 1 of them in my top 6. Perhaps 2 depending on a daily preference.
    I was making reference to middle order batsmen and I don't think it's a strech to say that one could say that the top 6 middle order bats of All Time could be Bradman, Richards, Sobers, Tendulkar, Lara and Headley. I think when Cricinfo did their exercise that the order of votes for middle order batsmen was Bradman, Sobers, Tendulkar, Richards, Headley, Lara, Hammond, Pollock and Chappell. When we did our ATG teams Sobers and Richards made the first team and Lara and Headley made the second. Hammond especially and Chappell are also credible names to be included in the 6, but thats why I used the term arguably, and I would stick with the six I named.

    ESPNcricinfo all-time World XI: Voting trends | All-time XIs | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

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    Fair enough on the middle order bats.

    Obviously the Windies have a great attack. Personally, I think not having a full time spinner will count against them. It may just be me, but McGrath/Lillee/Miller/Warne/O'Reilly would do better over a series than Marshall/Holding/Garner/Ambrose/Sobers. The 4x pace is an ATG attack, but in the long run it would lose out imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Fair enough on the middle order bats.

    Obviously the Windies have a great attack. Personally, I think not having a full time spinner will count against them. It may just be me, but McGrath/Lillee/Miller/Warne/O'Reilly would do better over a series than Marshall/Holding/Garner/Ambrose/Sobers. The 4x pace is an ATG attack, but in the long run it would lose out imo.
    Me thinks it depends on whom each team is playing and where

    Vs Eng home and away I think either attack would cause damage
    Vs RSA ditto but i think Oz would have the edge with the spinners
    vs Pakistan again either attack would be effective but again Oz's spinners woud edge it
    vs India well home or away (IMO) Oz's spinnners would get slaughtered. WI i think would be more effective in India. No comment on what they would do to India at home
    vs NZ Advantage Oz with the spinners
    vs SL this is where I think Oz's advantage would be most pronounced. With the exception of MM and maybe Mcgrath, I can see either pace bowling attack being seriously dented in SL but Warne and Oreilly I'd expect to wreak havok on SL wickets.
    vs each other In Oz on ur typical Sydney wicket the spinners would probably be a handful and the bigger Oz grounds would make it difficult for Viv and co to hit them out of the park. Vs the pacemen I can see the WI lineup holding their own for the simple fact that almost all the WI batsmen would have faced these bowlers and had varying degrees of success. The WI pacemen all have exceptional records in Oz. Amby in particular did wonders vs excellent Oz batting lineups so there's no reason to think that the 4 prong wouldnt atleast break even vs the Oz batting lineup. And I expect them to pulverise Oz at the Waca. Back in the WI well tbh, the spinners would be minced. CAribbean grounds are smaller and the wickets not at all conduscive to spin. That would effectively reduce Oz to a 3 man attack and we all know how WI batsmen are on their own patch. In the WI advantage WI attack

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