The third best spinner of all time?

[Dan]

If your stock delivery is a leg break and by your own declaration he spun the ball, it doesn't matter the.speed. Bradmam compared him to O'Reilly as a rival and when I saw O'Reilly and Underwood bowl They too at times approached medium, but we have no difficulties calling them spinners
From everthing to his grip to the point he made about not needing a googly, points to the conclusion he was a spinner. For me at least.

In that case the poll's a no contest.

Peter Siddle bowling cutters.

 

[Prince EWS]

Warne for me.

 

[archie mac]

I think that it needs to be said before this thread goes any further - Warne and Murali are the two greatest, and best, spin bowlers of all time.

It is possible to contend that assertion and suggest another pair of spinners, but gee wizz the counter-argument needs to be better than merely good. Good luck making a coherent case for whoever you propose.

I think Tiger better than both of them. Again modern players have longer careers does not make them better bowlers imo.

Both were fine bowlers having said that

 

[Maximas]

someone should really make a Barnes thread where we argue about what style of bowling he was, sick of hearing about it here.

 

[Coronis]

someone should really make a Barnes thread where we argue about what style of bowling he was, sick of hearing about it here.

I think we already have one somewhere.

 

[harsh.ag]

someone should really make a Barnes thread where we argue about what style of bowling he was, sick of hearing about it here.

There was a thread about this. Was really good, with a lot of notes coming forward from a few sources from back then. At the end of it, the consensus was that he bowled like O'Reilly, but was quicker, and perhaps sometimes he just bowled regular medium pace, as a variation.

The quicker than Bedser opinion is, I think, questionable.

 

[fredfertang]

The quicker than Bedser opinion is, I think, questionable.

It came from Jack Meyer who had just scored 89 against an attack led by Barnes, so I think that is about as unimpeachable a source as you will get

 

[kyear2]

Was Bedser that fast though. Will look for some footage.

 

[fredfertang]

Was Bedser that fast though. Will look for some footage.

Bedser wasn't remotely close to being fast, but the reason I made the point is that no one ever described him as a slow bowler either

 

[watson]

Shahid Afridi's quicker ball gets clocked at about 130 kph;

Shahid Afridi Fastest Ball Ever In History Of Cricket 134 kmh - YouTube

Obviously he slows his action down when bowling leg-spin or off-breaks, but the point is, the literature suggests that Sydney Barnes was also capable of such variations in pace. When asked to open the bowling he could 'let it rip' like Afridi in the above video, but when bowling his stock leg-spinner (as the ball got older presumerably) he would drop back his pace.

At least that's how I understand it.

 

[the big bambino]

Barnes appears to have been capable of doing it all except bowl express and claimed he didn't need the googly. Bobby Simpson recalled a net he had with Alec Bedser and remembers the ball disappearing into his big hands. Most of all he remembered being hit black and blue as numerous balls hit him around the thighs, hips and hands. He wasn't fast by accounts but swift enough off the pitch to make batsmen hop. I suppose he was a bit like FR Foster from the 11/12 series.

For this thread wasn't their an Indian whom Sobers rated the best leggie he played? I think his name was Gupte; from memory.

 

[Red]

Bedser wasn't remotely close to being fast, but the reason I made the point is that no one ever described him as a slow bowler either

Was Bedser as quick as McGrath?

 

[Dan]

Was Bedser as quick as McGrath?

McGrath was genuinely sharp at times but bowled within himself. I've always imagined Bedser as being around Philander's pace - high 120s to early 130s (or the analogous speed in that era, if you deny the bowling was as quick as it is today)

 

[Maximas]

Barnes was a finger spinner I thought though? apparently he discovered the Iverson/Gleeson/Mendis method for his leg breaks but somehow spun it harder... He developed his leg spinner well after the off break.

 

[watson]

Barnes was a finger spinner I thought though? apparently he discovered the Iverson/Gleeson/Mendis method for his leg breaks but somehow spun it harder... He developed his leg spinner well after the off break.

Interesting.

Any idea what year he unleashed his trademark leg-spinner?

 

[Maximas]

Interesting.

Any idea what year he unleashed his trademark leg-spinner?

My source is thisEnigma Variations – The Deliveries of S.F. Barnes | Down At Third Man

It claims that it was sometime after the 1901/2 tour to Australia - so he probably started using it around 02/03.

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

No Laker or Tayfield? Def two of the best offies - and offies have to be that much better to deceive

Murali weren't a true offie in my book.

P.s. thread of course begs the question are Warne and Murali indeed the best 2 spinners ever, a claim made mainly on the basis of wickets taken

 

[Coronis]

No Laker or Tayfield? Def two of the best offies - and offies have to be that much better to deceive

Murali weren't a true offie in my book.

P.s. thread of course begs the question are Warne and Murali indeed the best 2 spinners ever, a claim made mainly on the basis of wickets taken

Yep they're only considered the best because of their longevity. Thats why Anil Kumble is clearly the 3rd best spinner, and Glenn McGrath is clearly the best pacer ever.

 

[the big bambino]

Yep they're only considered the best because of their longevity. Thats why Anil Kumble is clearly the 3rd best spinner, and Glenn McGrath is clearly the best pacer ever.

Is that the reason? How convenient. And you're right. If thats the reasoning then why the discussion? Either its Kumble and lets move on or open up positions 1 and 2 as well.

 

[watson]

My source is thisEnigma Variations – The Deliveries of S.F. Barnes | Down At Third Man

It claims that it was sometime after the 1901/2 tour to Australia - so he probably started using it around 02/03.

Thanks Maximus. I like the following quotes from your article because they give us a clear idea of how Barnes operated;

...After his selection by MacLaren to tour Australia in 01/02 he told the captain that, in the cricket he had played in the Lancashire League, he had had to get results on any kind of wicket. If the wicket took spin he did not bowl his heart out with fast stuff, but if the wicket was good and firm he did bowl faster.

...The leg break was also bowled out of the front of the hand. The intriguing photograph below hints that the third and small finger of the right hand was held under the side of the ball and that the spin was imparted by these flicking upwards. Backwatersman wonders whether these were breaks or cutters. Barnes is clear that they are breaks. Once asked whether Underwood’s cutters were similar to his bowling, SFB answered with disdain that he spun the ball.

.....The techniques re-discovered by Iverson, Gleeson and Mendis were practiced by Barnes one hundred years ago. But Barnes had a number of other factors going for him. He could bowl both the off break and the leg break with the same action at a pace of 70 or 80 mph with the Magnus Effect giving him extremely late away and in-swing and, a very tall man by the standards of his age, he could bring the ball down from a height of eight feet or more giving him the steep bounce of a Joel Garner or Curtly Ambrose.

So I'm now wondering why such an accurate bowler who can combine swing with both off and leg-spin shouldn't automatically be included in an ATG World team?