View Poll Results: Greatest Bolwer of All

Voters
84. You may not vote on this poll
  • George Lohman

    0 0%
  • Syd Barnes

    5 5.95%
  • Bill O'Reilly

    0 0%
  • Harold Larwood

    3 3.57%
  • Hedley Verity

    0 0%
  • Ray Lindwall

    0 0%
  • Fred Trueman

    1 1.19%
  • John Snow

    0 0%
  • Dennis Lillee

    5 5.95%
  • Imran Khan

    2 2.38%
  • Richard Hadlee

    5 5.95%
  • Michael Holding

    0 0%
  • Malcolm Marshall

    24 28.57%
  • Wasim Akran

    3 3.57%
  • Curtly Ambrose

    3 3.57%
  • Shane Warne

    5 5.95%
  • Muttiah Muralitharan

    15 17.86%
  • Glenn Mcgrath

    8 9.52%
  • Dale Steyn

    4 4.76%
  • Other

    1 1.19%
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Thread: Greatest Bowler

  1. #31
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    Warne- graceful text book action
    charisma that created on field theatre
    very accurate leg spinner- almost impossible task to achieve
    better cricket mind than murali

    Murali- dominated India (final frontier for a spin bowler in those days) on his home track
    did not have mcgrath etc bowling at the other end to create pressure- HUGE factor in assisting warne to take wickets- even he admits to this himself

    I would say there is hardly anything between them
    All Time Test XI:

    Openers: S.Gavaskar V.Sehwag Middle Order: V.Richards S.Tendulkar B.Lara All Rounders: G.Sobers I Khan (C) WK: A.Gilchrist Bowlers: W.Akram M.Marshall M.Muralitharan

    All Time ODI XI:

    WK: A.Gilchrist S.Tendulkar V.Richards R. Ponting M. Dhoni M. Bevan Allrounder: K.Dev Bowlers: W.Akram J. Garner M.Muralitharan G. McGrath

  2. #32
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    If Warne got to play India on the Sri Lankan tracks it'd be a fairer comparison. Warne did better than Murali against India, in India; despite the fact that he played several series against them in a period where he had several career threatening injuries.

    For me, the greatest bowler ever is Warne, even though he doesn't have the best record, like Marshall. But the spells he bowled, the games he turned around, and the consistency he did it was incredible. I'm not sure I've seen a player as 'clutch' across any sport.

    Marshall's case is obvious, but Lillee's isn't. I remember doing an analysis of the attacks he faced. Roughly a third of the attacks he faced (combining Tests and WSC) were all-time great batting line-ups with several all-time great batsmen in each one. Few bowlers have 1 series of success against such line-ups, none (as far as I know) a third of their career. He averaged in the low 20s and under 50 IIRC with that record. What more, Lillee was lauded by all and sundry as the best of his generation. Hadlee, himself one of the greats, basically idolised him. As I've said before, he came as a tearaway and played the 2nd half of his career as a thinker in the McGrath mold. He did it with fantastic bowlers next to him, and he did it as a lonewolf too. He will be perenially underrated because his career was interrupted and because of a handful of Tests in the subcontinent though.
    Last edited by Ikki; 27-03-2013 at 06:21 AM.
    I think there'll sooner be another Bradman than another Warne. - Gidgeon Haigh

    [Warne is] the greatest bowler ever produced in this entire world - Muttiah Muralidaran

    [Warne is] the greatest bowler of all time - Glenn McGrath


    In my opinion Shane Warne is the greatest cricketer who's ever lived - Ian Botham

    Warne is the greatest cricketer to pick up a ball ever.
    And is the greatest bowler I have ever laid eyes on. - Brian Lara

  3. #33
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    Let's not do this again Let people who like Murali better vote for him
    I don't like Murali better but I voted for him anyway because I think he was the better bowler.

    I'd like to retract my vote as to not give a false impression to harsh.skm.
    ~ Cribbage

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    Sanga has done well but Murali has done better. In my opinion, Murali is simply the best off spinner in history of cricket and I can't make that kind of statement for Sanga.
    Sanga isn't the best off spinner in the history of cricket? News to me.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Warne, unlike Murfali didn't come on after five overs and didn't always come on first change as they had good fast bolwers who would take better advantage of the new ball and take some of the top order wickets before Warne came on. When compared to all other leg spinners since WW2 and covered pitches his numbers are surreal and just unbelievable. Where he separates himself againts Murali is that while he didn't bowl in the most spin friendly conditions at home apart from the SCG, he actually averages less playing away from home than at home, while Murali played in the most spin friendly conditions at home and averaged 19 at home (Warne himself averaged 20 with a s/r of 39 in Sri Lanka) compared to 27 away from home. Warne like Marshall proved that they could dominate at home and away while Murali showed that he was overly dependent on his home tracks.
    Then they are the minnows, averaging 13 againts Bangladesh and 16 vs Zimbabwe certainly helped his stats while taking 176 wickets agints them.
    Murali like Hadlee basically had his run of most batting lineups from top to tail while Warne like Marshall had to compete for wickets.
    800 is similar to 99.94 in it's dominance, but the numbers bear closer inspection and for me Warne definately comes out on top. His mental strength, his cricketing mind, his variations and his domination of the most difficult art of cricket just sealed it for me.
    Yes but kyear you were claiming that Sangakkara should be marked down for playing on batting pitches, now you are marking Murali down for playing in spin friendly conditions. How can someone take this argument seriously?

    Secondly you claim that Warne had less opportunity to bowl at the top order but that is exactly my point. Given that he bowled at lesser quality batsman on the line up than McGrath don't you think he should have taken wickets much more cheaply.

    I'll make this quick as I dont want this to go into the Murali Warne thread but as I've said before you can't simply blank out Zim and Bang even though I accept those teams should count for less. Zim were actually a proper team before 2003 and by excluding them you are excluding Murali's 10 wickets against Grant Flower yet you are happy to include Warne's 10 wickets against Harmison. Then after blanking out Zim and Bang you fail to blank out Australia, who Warne didn't have to play so by your logic they should not be included.

    Lastly, and this is not to do with test cricket but I'm curious all the same, when Murali and Warne played first class cricket in England how do you explain that Murali took wickets at 15 and Warne at 25?

    I'll make this quick before it goes onto the Murali Warne thread.


  5. #35
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    I'm going to make an executive decision to allow a Murali/Warne debate in this thread because it obviously can't be avoided and is very relevant to the topic.

    However, if possible, please try not to let it take over the thread completely, and allow an opportunity for people who want to put forward Marshall, Hadlee, Barnes, McGrath, Lillee, Larwood, Imran or anyone else to do so without getting shouted over.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    I don't like Murali better but I voted for him anyway because I think he was the better bowler.

    I'd like to retract my vote as to not give a false impression to harsh.skm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    I'm going to make an executive decision to allow a Murali/Warne debate in this thread because it obviously can't be avoided and is very relevant to the topic.

    However, if possible, please try not to let it take over the thread completely, and allow an opportunity for people who want to put forward Marshall, Hadlee, Barnes, McGrath, Lillee, Larwood, Imran or anyone else to do so without getting shouted over.
    This is what I was basically saying mate
    If you were that old, and that kind, and the very last of your kind, you couldn't just stand back and watch children cry.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    No Prctr? I am surprised
    did he play enough ?
    its easy to crown him as the greatest bowling all rounder though..

  8. #38
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    Warne was a great bowler, my only issue with him was that he had a very good supporting cast (both bowlers and batsman). This IMO makes his job easier since the burden on his shoulders is less. My vote goes to Murali.

    My No. 2 would be Hadlee for the same reasons. He carried his team's bowling and seemed to get better and better with age. Marshall did that too, but it's easier to demoralize the opponent if your bowling mates are world class champions as well.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhillon28 View Post
    outstanding analysis of Warne, I have always been astounded as to how many people simply overlook the fact that he never had to face Australia (definitely the second best players of spin during his time). I can imagine Hayden and Gilly taking him to the cleaners. I also reckon Michael clarke, m hussey, darren Lehman would all play him comfortably and he would not be as effective as he was against NZ, RSA and England.
    THAT was an outstanding analysis? You have got to be kidding me. The criticism of Warne's record against India is of course a fair one but frankly, virtually every great spinner has been smashed around by Indian batsmen. Bowling against India was their greatest challenge and both the great spinners failed.

    Also, the "didn't play against teammates" argument is the absolute worst, the fungus scraped off the bottom of the barrell of silly criticisms aimed at great players' records. Warne's "big limitation" is that he was Australian? What was Warne supposed to do? Do a KP-esque country switch just to complete some arbitrary list of "things to do to call myself ATG"? You get judged on how you actually perform, not on some imaginary scenario of what ifs about which you can NEVER actually know what the outcome would have been.
    Last edited by Satyanash89; 27-03-2013 at 12:05 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricketismylife View Post
    Yes but kyear you were claiming that Sangakkara should be marked down for playing on batting pitches, now you are marking Murali down for playing in spin friendly conditions. How can someone take this argument seriously?

    Secondly you claim that Warne had less opportunity to bowl at the top order but that is exactly my point. Given that he bowled at lesser quality batsman on the line up than McGrath don't you think he should have taken wickets much more cheaply.

    I'll make this quick as I dont want this to go into the Murali Warne thread but as I've said before you can't simply blank out Zim and Bang even though I accept those teams should count for less. Zim were actually a proper team before 2003 and by excluding them you are excluding Murali's 10 wickets against Grant Flower yet you are happy to include Warne's 10 wickets against Harmison. Then after blanking out Zim and Bang you fail to blank out Australia, who Warne didn't have to play so by your logic they should not be included.

    Lastly, and this is not to do with test cricket but I'm curious all the same, when Murali and Warne played first class cricket in England how do you explain that Murali took wickets at 15 and Warne at 25?

    I'll make this quick before it goes onto the Murali Warne thread.
    how dare you raise some valid points.....that is kyear2's opinion and he is not answerable to people for it
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sobers no:1 View Post
    did he play enough ?
    its easy to crown him as the greatest bowling all rounder though..
    7 Tests, 41 wickets @ 15.02


    In terms of Warne vs Murali, I haven't objectively been able to separate them. My heart says Warne, possibly because I grew up watching him. Apart from that though nobody's ever been able to convince me otherwise. You guys can try! Always wanted to see them bowling together but noooooo, Warne/Murali/Sobers and 2 ATG pacers is too weak of an attack apparently.

  12. #42
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    I think that on raw numbers alone Murali would have to be the greatest bowler in Test cricket.

    However, all Doosra bowlers 'chuck' by definition as it's only way that the delivery can be bowled. This discounts Murali in my mind as I can't see past the ugliness of that irregularity

    This leaves me with Malcolm Marshall, Glenn McGrath, Richard Hadlee, Dennis Lillee, or Shane Warne as next on the list. It's a close run thing but on the whole any successful team pivots foremost on its incumbant fast bowler. And Malcolm Marshall was the best fast bowler of the lot.

    Malcolm Marshall for me.

  13. #43
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    Tough one . So many great bowlers. But i went for Dennis Lillee for the following reasons
    1) Aggressive long run-up with a flowing mane
    2) beautiful action
    3) Abort his run-up or go all the way near the batsman and give him a stare basically asking whytf r u here?
    4) After taking the batsman's wicket wave both the hands manically basically asking the batsman to gtfo to the pavilion
    5) After taking the batsman's wicket sometimes runup to the wickets and give a mock kick to the stumps
    6)oh yes small matter of ability to bowl all kind of deliveries and inspiration-al coming back from serious injury and all..

    Last but not the least he chose India to teach fast bowling of all places..

    I know the poll is about selection of a great bowler which he is (overlooking his SC record) and i should have used technical reasoning to base my selection but i thought i will go with the above reasons. Btw most of the reasoning are just by watching youtube videos .. Great bowler..What a performer..
    Last edited by doesitmatter; 27-03-2013 at 02:41 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyanash89 View Post
    THAT was an outstanding analysis? You have got to be kidding me. The criticism of Warne's record against India is of course a fair one but frankly, virtually every great spinner has been smashed around by Indian batsmen. Bowling against India was their greatest challenge and both the great spinners failed.

    Also, the "didn't play against teammates" argument is the absolute worst, the fungus scraped off the bottom of the barrell of silly criticisms aimed at great players' records. Warne's "big limitation" is that he was Australian? What was Warne supposed to do? Do a KP-esque country switch just to complete some arbitrary list of "things to do to call myself ATG"? You get judged on how you actually perform, not on some imaginary scenario of what ifs about which you can NEVER actually know what the outcome would have been.
    You've misunderstood my point. Of course it's not Warne's fault that he didn't play Australia, but at the same time he has benefited from not playing them, in the same way that Murali benefited from playing Bang and Zim far more than Warne did. It's inconsistent to cancel Bang and Zim and not take into account other factors (bowling at top order and Australia). In effect you are blaming Murali for playing Bang and Zim but not crediting him for having to face Australia.

    Also Murali dominated India in Sri Lanka and had the wood over Tendulkar, so Murali didn;t fail against India he only failed in India.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyanash89 View Post
    THAT was an outstanding analysis? You have got to be kidding me. The criticism of Warne's record against India is of course a fair one but frankly, virtually every great spinner has been smashed around by Indian batsmen. Bowling against India was their greatest challenge and both the great spinners failed.

    Also, the "didn't play against teammates" argument is the absolute worst, the fungus scraped off the bottom of the barrell of silly criticisms aimed at great players' records. Warne's "big limitation" is that he was Australian? What was Warne supposed to do? Do a KP-esque country switch just to complete some arbitrary list of "things to do to call myself ATG"? You get judged on how you actually perform, not on some imaginary scenario of what ifs about which you can NEVER actually know what the outcome would have been.
    As above.

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