View Poll Results: Who is the best "Cricketer" ever

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  • Keith Miller

    1 1.33%
  • Imran Khan

    7 9.33%
  • Gary Sobers

    16 21.33%
  • Jacques Kallis

    15 20.00%
  • Don Bradman

    28 37.33%
  • WG Grace

    5 6.67%
  • Other

    3 4.00%
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Thread: Who is the Best "Cricketer" Ever?

  1. #196
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    Good to see Matt Prior getting a mention in a thread about the greatest ever cricketer. Why don't all just admit it's Collis King and then we can all go to bed.

  2. #197
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    If we're looking at all-rounders as the greatest cricketers (in terms of contribution to their teams), I think it boils down to a select few.

    The following players would have been selected for their national teams as either batsmen OR bowlers (or wicketkeepers):

    Miller, Sobers, Jack Gregory, Botham, Gilchrist, Les Ames, Flintoff (briefly), Kapil Dev (probably would have been selected as a specialist bat even if he didn't bowl)

    Players capable of batting top 6 and either being one of the four main bowlers, or being the wicketkeeper, have been pretty rare.


    The following players would have definitely been picked for their dominant skill, but it's questionable whether they'd have been picked for their secondary skill:

    Imran, Hadlee, Davidson, Kallis, Flower, Lindwall, Benaud, Wasim


    Any I've forgotten?

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    If we're looking at all-rounders as the greatest cricketers (in terms of contribution to their teams), I think it boils down to a select few.

    The following players would have been selected for their national teams as either batsmen OR bowlers (or wicketkeepers):

    Miller, Sobers, Jack Gregory, Botham, Gilchrist, Les Ames, Flintoff (briefly), Kapil Dev (probably would have been selected as a specialist bat even if he didn't bowl)

    Players capable of batting top 6 and either being one of the four main bowlers, or being the wicketkeeper, have been pretty rare.


    The following players would have definitely been picked for their dominant skill, but it's questionable whether they'd have been picked for their secondary skill:

    Imran, Hadlee, Davidson, Kallis, Flower, Lindwall, Benaud, Wasim


    Any I've forgotten?
    Faulkner, perhaps?

  4. #199
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    Shakib clearly.

    I know Bangladesh are an unusual case but it illustrates the weakness with basing it on this criteria.


  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    If we're looking at all-rounders as the greatest cricketers (in terms of contribution to their teams), I think it boils down to a select few.

    The following players would have been selected for their national teams as either batsmen OR bowlers (or wicketkeepers):

    Miller, Sobers, Jack Gregory, Botham, Gilchrist, Les Ames, Flintoff (briefly), Kapil Dev (probably would have been selected as a specialist bat even if he didn't bowl)

    Players capable of batting top 6 and either being one of the four main bowlers, or being the wicketkeeper, have been pretty rare.


    The following players would have definitely been picked for their dominant skill, but it's questionable whether they'd have been picked for their secondary skill:

    Imran, Hadlee, Davidson, Kallis, Flower, Lindwall, Benaud, Wasim


    Any I've forgotten?
    Flintoff (31.77 / 32.78) in the first group but not Kallis (56.10 / 32.43), hilarious. Kallis with more fifers too. I think people understimate Kallis's bowling because of his batting. And that he has been used mainly as a "holding" fifth bowler. Yet 288 wickets. And can someone please link to the ball that made Ponting fall flat on his face as it swung past him.

  6. #201
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KungFu_Kallis View Post
    Flintoff (31.77 / 32.78) in the first group but not Kallis (56.10 / 32.43), hilarious. Kallis with more fifers too. I think people understimate Kallis's bowling because of his batting. And that he has been used mainly as a "holding" fifth bowler. Yet 288 wickets. And can someone please link to the ball that made Ponting fall flat on his face as it swung past him.
    I don't think Kallis would have played as many tests as he did were he a bowler only. I'm comfortable with him being in the top group though.

  7. #202
    U19 Cricketer KungFu_Kallis's Avatar
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    Just because 2nd Test v SA - Ponting Wicket - YouTube

    P.s. ok maybe I'm fanboy. But it's kallisball.
    Last edited by KungFu_Kallis; 01-04-2013 at 09:29 PM.

  8. #203
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Have alrady explained my issues with calling Imran the greatest cricketer of all time, unlike Imran though Miller was a legitimate top order batsman, but not an exceptioanl one (about equivalent to Sobers bowling) and as a bowler he was never a work horse bowler, he was used more purely as a new ball shock bowler and his three wickets a match (despite for one series receiving the new ball every 55 overs) is testament to this and his strike rate is less than stellar. So as a bowler he is not as good as Sobers was as a batsman though his slip fielding added additional to his game and elevates him to just above Imran, but since Imran was the better bowler and that is their main function in any team and would be batting at 8 anyway, Imran makes my first team and we could hide him at mid on or mid off when not bowling or at fine leg.
    Dude your posting has become extremely biased, you've been marking down Bradman for minnow bashing and playing in such and such era despite the fact that he only preceded Sobers by 10 years. Now you are marking down Miller's batting by saying it is equivalent to Sobers's bowling. Have you checked Sobers's bowling stats?

    Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Sobers only did well against the minnows of that time and that too only 1 minnow i.e. India. Also there is a gap between his home and away bowling average if you take out the minnows India from his record. His bowling average against the other minnow of the time i.e Pakistan is 113.50 with a Strike Rate 356. Against NZ he strikes every 116 deliveries. Against Aus at 100. Who in his right mind would want to use Sobers as a front line bowler in a good team who is up against a good team? So how come you never mark down Sobers for something that you consistently mark down other greats for?
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  9. #204
    State Vice-Captain akilana's Avatar
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    Sobers record as a bowler is just average. Wouldn't pick him as a bowler alone.

    Imran was an ATG bowler and his batting was as good as Sobers's bowling or better.

    Anyways, have Imran as my 2nd greatest cricketer ever, just ahead Kallis.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by akilana View Post
    Sobers record as a bowler is just average. Wouldn't pick him as a bowler alone.

    Imran was an ATG bowler and his batting was as good as Sobers's bowling or better.

    Anyways, have Imran as my 2nd greatest cricketer ever, just ahead Kallis.
    Imran's batting is quite overrated.

  11. #206
    State Vice-Captain akilana's Avatar
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    So is Sobers's bowling. If he was one the of the top 5 bowler during his time then the standard must have been low.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Dude your posting has become extremely biased, you've been marking down Bradman for minnow bashing and playing in such and such era despite the fact that he only preceded Sobers by 10 years. Now you are marking down Miller's batting by saying it is equivalent to Sobers's bowling. Have you checked Sobers's bowling stats?

    Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Sobers only did well against the minnows of that time and that too only 1 minnow i.e. India. Also there is a gap between his home and away bowling average if you take out the minnows India from his record. His bowling average against the other minnow of the time i.e Pakistan is 113.50 with a Strike Rate 356. Against NZ he strikes every 116 deliveries. Against Aus at 100. Who in his right mind would want to use Sobers as a front line bowler in a good team who is up against a good team? So how come you never mark down Sobers for something that you consistently mark down other greats for?
    I quite agree. I will make two arguments here.

    First, Sobers is considered to be a good bowler because for some time, he was the leader/one of the leaders of the West Indian bowling attack. The attack was, quite observably, weak and so he didn't seem bad in that context. Many greats still rank him as the third best left arm pacer they have seen behind Wasim and Davidson. I think his batting may have, perhaps, left a touch of afterglow on his bowling.

    Second, this is the reason why I don't rank Sobers as the greatest all-rounder of all. As I remarked before, if you had to pick one cricketer in your team given that the other 10 could be anybody from history, picking Miller or Imran is perhaps the best option. Bradman is a good option as well. So, just going by that criteria, they would be the greatest 3. But there are other criteria as well, of course, and they will probably have Sobers and Kallis ahead. For example, filling the 6th batsman and 5th bowler's role in an ATG team.

    My overall position on this is that Sobers is the best all round player the game has ever seen, while Miller and Imran the best all rounders.
    Last edited by harsh.ag; 01-04-2013 at 11:05 PM.
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  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Dude your posting has become extremely biased, you've been marking down Bradman for minnow bashing and playing in such and such era despite the fact that he only preceded Sobers by 10 years. Now you are marking down Miller's batting by saying it is equivalent to Sobers's bowling. Have you checked Sobers's bowling stats?

    Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

    Sobers only did well against the minnows of that time and that too only 1 minnow i.e. India. Also there is a gap between his home and away bowling average if you take out the minnows India from his record. His bowling average against the other minnow of the time i.e Pakistan is 113.50 with a Strike Rate 356. Against NZ he strikes every 116 deliveries. Against Aus at 100. Who in his right mind would want to use Sobers as a front line bowler in a good team who is up against a good team? So how come you never mark down Sobers for something that you consistently mark down other greats for?
    Look, all he was saying was that Sobers would have been picked in that West Indies side as either a bowler or as a batsman, which is completely true. West Indies' bowling resources were pretty barren and Sobers was one of their frontline bowlers. The thing that made him the greatest is the fact that Sobers was the best batsman in the side, and had to bowl the bulk of their overs too, as a frontline seamer. He also ended up as the highest wicket taker on a tour to England once, if im not mistaken. Yes his strike-rate was poor and his record is pretty uneven so he's no more than a merely decent support bowler in an AT XI, but his workload was absolutely immense, as batsman and frontline seamer , far more so than any other all-rounder ever. People seem to conveniently forget this about Sobers

    If you want an all-rounder who can be picked in an All-time XI either solely for batting or bowling, you'll never find one, because there hasnt been such a player yet.

  14. #209
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyanash89 View Post
    Look, all he was saying was that Sobers would have been picked in that West Indies side as either a bowler or as a batsman, which is completely true. West Indies' bowling resources were pretty barren and Sobers was one of their frontline bowlers. The thing that made him the greatest is the fact that Sobers was the best batsman in the side, and had to bowl the bulk of their overs too, as a frontline seamer. He also ended up as the highest wicket taker on a tour to England once, if im not mistaken. Yes his strike-rate was poor and his record is pretty uneven so he's no more than a merely decent support bowler in an AT XI, but his workload was absolutely immense, as batsman and frontline seamer , far more so than any other all-rounder ever. People seem to conveniently forget this about Sobers

    If you want an all-rounder who can be picked in an All-time XI either solely for batting or bowling, you'll never find one, because there hasnt been such a player yet.
    EXACTLY and so could Imran and Miller find a place in their sides for each of their disciplines because usually the teams that they played in were relatively weak in one department to make room for them.

    Also the thing that irritates me is the double standards. While arguments are being put forward to find holes in non-favorite players' resume the same arguments are not being used to mark down favorite players.

  15. #210
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akilana View Post
    Sobers record as a bowler is just average. Wouldn't pick him as a bowler alone.

    Imran was an ATG bowler and his batting was as good as Sobers's bowling or better.

    Anyways, have Imran as my 2nd greatest cricketer ever, just ahead Kallis.
    His initial selection for the WIs was as a bowler. So he fits the criteria of the point I was making.

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