View Poll Results: Best After the Don

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  • Jack Hobbs

    7 7.78%
  • Wally Hammond

    1 1.11%
  • George Headley

    1 1.11%
  • Len Hutton

    2 2.22%
  • Garry Sobers

    13 14.44%
  • Sunil Gavaskar

    1 1.11%
  • Graeme Pollock

    2 2.22%
  • Greg Chappell

    1 1.11%
  • Barry Richards

    1 1.11%
  • Viv Richards

    16 17.78%
  • Sachin Tendulkar

    20 22.22%
  • Brian Lara

    6 6.67%
  • Ricky Ponting

    5 5.56%
  • Jacques Kallis

    8 8.89%
  • W.G. Grace

    4 4.44%
  • Other

    2 2.22%
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Thread: Best After The Don

  1. #751
    Dan
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    Global Moderator / Cricket Web Staff Member Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    Nice.

    As an aside, I want to ask something else. When I see statements like "Hobbs best before Bradman", and I too have said that many a time, is everybody, like me, not including Grace in the discussion at all as that would be too complex? Just like Lohmann in terms of bowling.

    I mean, in all batting conversations we have about the past, we are all consciously ignoring Grace, right? Or do most people do not rate him highly at all?
    I get the feeling it's because the unwritten rule is discussion is exclusively based upon Tests unless otherwise stated. And WG was well past his best days when Test cricket rolled around.

    If you specifically widened the criteria to include pre-Test performances, Grace would rate far more of a mention, I think. Still a few who don't rate him, as is their opinion, but you'd have more Grace supporters than with a Test-exclusive metric.

  2. #752
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    I've never really thought about the number of Tests that WG played. Couldn't tell you.

    Rather, I make the assumption that the twin sciences of batting and bowling were still in their formative years when WG played. So while he did very well in the 1880s, he would would have real tecnhical difficulties against modern cricketers.

    I happen to think that Grace and Bradman are equally the greatest cricketers ever to play cricket. But this is completely different to saying that Grace is among the best cricketers. He isn't, for the simple reason that he probably wouldn't last all that long against Malcolm Marshall and Michael Holding with the new ball. Bradman would relish the challenge, Grace would be out either bowled or injured.

    But that's just my intuitive opinion. Nothing more.
    Last edited by watson; 23-04-2013 at 03:05 AM.
    Sunil Gavaskar – Len Hutton – Don Bradman – Garry Sobers – Viv Richards – Keith Miller – Imran Khan – Jock Cameron – Richie Benaud – Malcolm Marshall – Bill O’Reilly

  3. #753
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I've never really thought about the number of Tests that WG played. Couldn't tell you.

    Rather, I make the assumption that the twin sciences of batting and bowling were still in their formative years when WG played. So while he did very well in the 1880s, he would would have real tecnhical difficulties against modern cricketers.

    I happen to think that Grace and Bradman are equally the greatest cricketers ever to play cricket. But this is completely different to saying that Grace is among the best cricketers. He isn't, for the simple reason that he probably wouldn't last all that long against Malcolm Marshall and Michael Holding with the new ball. Bradman would relish the challenge, Grace would be out either bowled or injured.

    But that's just my intuitive opinion. Nothing more.
    It's a nice way of putting it. But then, again, you are only taking it one way. If we are going to envision Grace batting against Marshall and co. when cricket has fully(?) evolved, we should also envisage what Marshall and co. would have looked like if taken to back when it wasn't (apart from being slaves in the British empire, I mean)
    If you were that old, and that kind, and the very last of your kind, you couldn't just stand back and watch children cry.

  4. #754
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I've never really thought about the number of Tests that WG played. Couldn't tell you.

    Rather, I make the assumption that the twin sciences of batting and bowling were still in their formative years when WG played. So while he did very well in the 1880s, he would would have real tecnhical difficulties against modern cricketers.

    I happen to think that Grace and Bradman are equally the greatest cricketers ever to play cricket. But this is completely different to saying that Grace is among the best cricketers. He isn't, for the simple reason that he probably wouldn't last all that long against Malcolm Marshall and Michael Holding with the new ball. Bradman would relish the challenge, Grace would be out either bowled or injured.

    But that's just my intuitive opinion. Nothing more.
    Not sure I entirely agree with you - I have no doubt that WG would never have faced anyone as quick as Holding or Marshall, but given the wickets he played on I suspect the bowlers he faced were rather more dangerous - I think a young Grace would have enjoyed pitting his wits against 21st century fast bowlers, as long as he had to do so in 21st century conditions of course


  5. #755
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    Not sure I entirely agree with you - I have no doubt that WG would never have faced anyone as quick as Holding or Marshall, but given the wickets he played on I suspect the bowlers he faced were rather more dangerous - I think a young Grace would have enjoyed pitting his wits against 21st century fast bowlers, as long as he had to do so in 21st century conditions of course
    Awta.

  6. #756
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    Not sure I entirely agree with you - I have no doubt that WG would never have faced anyone as quick as Holding or Marshall, but given the wickets he played on I suspect the bowlers he faced were rather more dangerous - I think a young Grace would have enjoyed pitting his wits against 21st century fast bowlers, as long as he had to do so in 21st century conditions of course
    I can't disagree entirely because I have no way of manufacturing a Grace V Marshall/Holding match-up to prove my opinion.

    However, given time there is little doubt that Grace would relish modern conditions and modern fast bowlers because he was a cricketing genius in every sense. But having said that, ATGs shouldn't have to go to coaching clinic and play practice matches in order to succeed against other ATGs. They should simply be.

  7. #757
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I can't disagree entirely because I have no way of manufacturing a Grace V Marshall/Holding match-up to prove my opinion.

    However, given time there is little doubt that Grace would relish modern conditions and modern fast bowlers because he was a cricketing genius in every sense. But having said that, ATGs shouldn't have to go to coaching clinic and play practice matches in order to succeed against other ATGs. They should simply be.
    That's a bit harsh mate - I mean you wouldn't expect Australia to come over here this summer and go straight into the first Test - Grace couldn't expect much practice, and I don't think he'd need a lot but he'd surely be entitled to some - I think a 21st century batsman would need a lot more if he went back 150 years and had to play against round arm bowlers well used to making good use of poorly prepared wickets.

  8. #758
    Cricket Web Staff Member archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    Not sure I entirely agree with you - I have no doubt that WG would never have faced anyone as quick as Holding or Marshall, but given the wickets he played on I suspect the bowlers he faced were rather more dangerous - I think a young Grace would have enjoyed pitting his wits against 21st century fast bowlers, as long as he had to do so in 21st century conditions of course
    I love the story when he was given a standing ovation for blocking three shooters in a row at Lords. You can almost guarantee when the ball keeps low the modern batsman misses it.
    You know it makes sense.

  9. #759
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    That's a bit harsh mate - I mean you wouldn't expect Australia to come over here this summer and go straight into the first Test - Grace couldn't expect much practice, and I don't think he'd need a lot but he'd surely be entitled to some - I think a 21st century batsman would need a lot more if he went back 150 years and had to play against round arm bowlers well used to making good use of poorly prepared wickets.
    The Aussie batsman will play a handful of games against County sides before going into the first Test. My own opinion is that WG would take more than a handful of County games to come up to scratch against an ATG attack on 21st century wickets.

    As for 1880s wickets - I don't think that they are an option at all. If Marshall and Holding bowled on an 1880s pitch then there would have to be a string of ambulances waiting for the injured batsman. No batsman, even Grace or Jupp would survive very long against such an on-slaught.

    (I'm now thinking of the England V West Indies Test match at Sabina Park (1998) that was called off because the pitch was unacceptably dangerous)
    Last edited by watson; 23-04-2013 at 05:35 PM.

  10. #760
    Cricket Web Staff Member archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    The Aussie batsman will play a handful of games against County sides before going into the first Test. My own opinion is that WG would take more than a handful of County games to come up to scratch against an ATG attack on 21st century wickets.

    As for 1880s wickets - I don't think that they are an option at all. If Marshall and Holding bowled on an 1880s pitch then there would have to be a string of ambulances waiting for the injured batsman. No batsman, even Grace or Jupp would survive very long against such as on-slaught.

    (I'm now thinking of the England V West Indies Test match at Sabina Park (1998) that was called off because the pitch was unacceptably dangerous)
    You should be aware that often fast bowlers were piss poor on the sticky wickets when Grace was at his peak. Their foot marks were not covered and the ball would on occassions stick in the wet pitch

  11. #761
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    You mentioned '3 shooters in a row' archie mac. I assumed them to be caused by ridges/cracks on the pitch because when a ball hits a ridge/crack it either 'shoots' along the ground, or flies at the batsman's head - as in that 1998 Sabina Park Test match.

    I'm not an expert on wickets from the 1880s, but I've always imagined them to be non-flat, or at least below the standard of modern wickets (I am happy to be corrected in this assumption), and therefore unsuitable for genuine fast bowling no matter the weather conditions.

    Anyway, despite saying all that, there's no way of proving one way or the other whether WG would go OK against ATG fast bowling on modern wickets without considerable practice. So really, we are having a fruitless discussion. Although, it is still an interesting conjecture just the same!

  12. #762
    Cricket Web Staff Member archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    You mentioned '3 shooters in a row' archie mac. I assumed them to be caused by ridges/cracks on the pitch because when a ball hits a ridge/crack it either 'shoots' along the ground, or flies at the batsman's head - as in that 1998 Sabina Park Test match.

    I'm not an expert on wickets from the 1880s, but I've always imagined them to be non-flat, or at least below the standard of modern wickets (I am happy to be corrected in this assumption), and therefore unsuitable for genuine fast bowling no matter the weather conditions.

    Anyway, despite saying all that, there's no way of proving one way or the other whether WG would go OK against ATG fast bowling on modern wickets without considerable practice. So really, we are having a fruitless discussion. Although, it is still an interesting conjecture just the same!
    Not sure about the pitch with the three shooters but your theory is sound imo. Yeah still interesting although pointless, although perhaps they have invented time travel 100 years from now and they have taken Sachin to face the great bowlers of 2113 and are saying he is no chance against them

  13. #763
    Request Your Custom Title Now! benchmark00's Avatar
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    Had three shooters in a row last weekend myself itbt.
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    Kohli. Do something in test cricket for once please.

    Thanks.

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    International Vice-Captain Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Had three shooters in a row last weekend myself itbt.
    Bukakke?

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