Last edited by the big bambino; 15-03-2013 at 03:00 AM.
If we replace Sachin with another Lara there would be no discernible change. Simply because all great batsman have similar averages. But Bradman is so far above the rest, and if you are replacing Don with second best at that time you will lose roughly 45% of his output. So number of innings would be immaterial in that case.
Why SRT's batting average? It should be the global batting average. The whole "Bradman effect" is blown out of proportion. Every good batsman has dented bowlers stats. Bradman had done it more than others. That doesn't make bowlers who bowled to him Marshalls, Hadlees, Warnes or Muralis.
Member of the Sanga fan club. (Ugh! it took me so long to become a real fan of his)
The whole argument boild down to what would the change of average if there was an average batsman instead of a great one.
When the batsman averages 100 (and the global average is 30), the difference is 70 x 0.018 = 1.26 runs.
At average of 58, it is 28 x 0.018 = 0.504. The net difference Bradman brings is 1.26 - 0.54, that is 0.7 runs, so called the "Bradman Effect".
0.018 since Bradman played 1.8% of test innings during his period.
It is average at the given position. Why would you count all the batsman? and why would anyone who bats at 3 will average 30. You are being disingenuous, including all batsman over whole period. This exercise is about individual batting positions at each period. If you don't chose the second best then you have to select number 3 average without bradman, that would actually hurt the overall output more.
The point being that no one has dented them as uniquely as Bradman. Therefore it needs to be accounted for to make a proper appreciation of the bowlers he faced. With the exception of Warne the 4 bowlers you mentioned would not be considered great now if they played in DGB's era. Bcos they wouldn't have had the number of tests to prove themselves. In fact Murali wouldn't have played at all. You see how ridiculous your point becomes? You fail to rate players with a proper weighting of their skills. You penalise them for lack of opportunity.
I have provided a comparison for you in another thread. It shows the Eng bowlers Bradman faced to be the equivalent of Tyson, Trueman, Statham, Bedser and Bailey. That is a fine set of bowlers. Only a fool would argue otherwise. I also know that they are distinctly superior to the careers of bowlers Eng used to win the ashes in 2005 (achieved against a great team). That is on the raw stats alone. When the Bradman effect is taken into account the difference is overwhelming and in favour of the 30s bowlers. Additionally the overall batting ave of the 30s is the 2nd lowest by decades since that time if only DGB took up tennis instead of cricket. So the bowlers must have been doing something right.
I have given you these comparsions to show the fine quality of the bowlers Bradman faced. You on the other hand have given us nothing to prove otherwise except your naive incredulity. I've read your posts and am comfortable with the realisation they offer me nothing to consider except the opportunity to correct your misconceptions and biases.
Last edited by the big bambino; 15-03-2013 at 03:53 PM.
As another poster said you are being disingenuous. If I were being kinder I'd call you merely ignorant and leave it at that. I have the real rate of the distortion and DGB distorted the 30s overall ave by 1.28 runs. A meagre amount you infer but you'd be wrong. The differences in batting aves over the decades since the 30s is relatively miniscule. So Bradman's impact alone moves the 30's ave from 2nd lowest place up 4 places. He alone manages to do that. That is bcos an era that has a men who average 50 is counter balanced by every other era who have men who've done the same But no other era has a player who averages 103 except for the 30s (and perhaps the 40s). Hence the correction to remove the outlier.
Last edited by the big bambino; 15-03-2013 at 03:54 PM.
No. Just no...The higher proportion of innings you play relative to all others the more you'll distort the decadal ave. So using an absurd example to illustrate, if DGB played one innings of 103 it'd have no impact on the decadal ave. If he played every innings the ave for the decade would be 102.77. See it now? The more innings you play the greater the distortion.
So DGB distorted the 30s ave 2 ways.
(1) An abnormal and unique batting ave.
(2) Playing an abnormally high proportion of that decade's innings.
The 1st point is unique. The 2nd point is rare and almost uniquely confined to the 30s 40s and maybe 50s. The 2 in conjunction are unique.
That is to say no other player approaches the average and in modern times a player's impact is smoothed out by the greater no. of games played. So his proportion of innings becomes more modest relative to the total played.
Well that moderating factor doesn't apply to the 30s. So you have to correct for that distortion too. For example a batsman like Hammond, who ave in the 50s, played even more innings than DGB. Therefore his impact on that decade's average is greater than a similar player in a more modern decade.
So if you adjusted the proportion of Hammond's innings to reflect a modern percentage then the decade's batting ave falls even further. Much to your annoyance and the pleasure I'm taking from it.![]()
As an example of the post above lets take Hammond. What impact did he have on the decadal ave of the 1930s?
For the starting point I've deducted DGB's runs so as to illustrate the distorting impact of the no. of innings Hammond played relative to the rest in the decade.
Hammond played around 3.5% of that decade's innings. A massive proportion for an individual player. I have a vague recollection that SRT played about 0.97% of the innings in the 90s. I couldn't be bothered checking that but it equates nicely with his overall figure provided by Migara in the post I quoted above.
If you remove Hammond's raw stats from the 30s the overall ave drops by just over one run. A disproportionate impact for a man who averaged 59 simply bcos of the no of innings he played.
If you proportion the no. of innings he played to the 0.97% figure that modern greats like SRT seems to generate, Hammond would only bring down the decadal ave by 0.28 runs. Almost one quarter the impact he actually had.
So thankyou Migara. It looks like I'll have to adjust the 30s batting ave to account for the disproportionate no. of innings the great players of that decade played. This would bring down that decade's batting ave even further
EDIT: Note that if you similarly proportion DGB's innings the decadal ave increases by almost a run but the 30s batting ave still remains the 2nd lowest.
Last edited by the big bambino; 15-03-2013 at 03:48 PM.
Your argument is ridiculous. Bradman dented them, so did Sachin or Ponting. Bradman had the most effect all right, but the effect is meagre 0.72 runs, which will not change Voce in to a Marshall. And bolded part just shows the Bradman bias you have. Bradman never faced quality of Marshall or Hadlee, or Murali or Warne, even after the 0.72 Bradman effect is taken in to account. And to suggest Murali would not have played blah, blah is just changing goal posts of the discussion by bringing irrelevent arguments. The number of test argument is another joke, because nearly 50-75% of tests in 30-40s were Ashes. The number of sides are larger now and so are the bilateral series.
I have proved that what Bradman did instead of Hutton in that place is 0.72. If he dented some bowlers with averages 4 - 5 runs, there must be ones who benefited from bowling to him. Otherwise the overall aggregate could not come to 1.26I have provided a comparison for you in another thread. It shows the Eng bowlers Bradman faced to be the equivalent of Tyson, Trueman, Statham, Bedser and Bailey.
You are once again dishing Bradman effect. If Ponting replaced Bradman, the bowling averaged would drop by 0.7, which is just plain insignificant. Put what ever way you like, none of the bowlers bowled to Bradman has class of Marshall, Holding, McGrath, oe HadleeThat is a fine set of bowlers. Only a fool would argue otherwise. I also know that they are distinctly superior to the careers of bowlers Eng used to win the ashes in 2005 (achieved against a great team). That is on the raw stats alone. When the Bradman effect is taken into account the difference is overwhelming and in favour of the 30s bowlers. Additionally the overall batting ave of the 30s is the 2nd lowest by decades since that time if only DGB took up tennis instead of cricket. So the bowlers must have been doing something right.
Decadal averages were just averages of Ashes. I could easily show what effect Sehwag had on India-Pakistan matches for an example if only India and Pakistan played.
1st point is unique, I agree. Second was just due to circumstances.So DGB distorted the 30s ave 2 ways.
(1) An abnormal and unique batting ave.
(2) Playing an abnormally high proportion of that decade's innings.
The 1st point is unique. The 2nd point is rare and almost uniquely confined to the 30s 40s and maybe 50s. The 2 in conjunction are unique.
Similarly, crap players in 30s and 40s will have a massive effect in bringing the average down compared to modern times. Two way process it is.That is to say no other player approaches the average and in modern times a player's impact is smoothed out by the greater no. of games played. So his proportion of innings becomes more modest relative to the total played.
apply the same theory for 8,9,10 jack innings as well.Well that moderating factor doesn't apply to the 30s. So you have to correct for that distortion too. For example a batsman like Hammond, who ave in the 50s, played even more innings than DGB. Therefore his impact on that decade's average is greater than a similar player in a more modern decade.
Remeber the rabbits.So if you adjusted the proportion of Hammond's innings to reflect a modern percentage then the decade's batting ave falls even further. Much to your annoyance and the pleasure I'm taking from it.![]()
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