View Poll Results: Who is the worst wicket keeper to play 75 Tests as designated keeper?

Voters
29. You may not vote on this poll
  • MV Boucher (ICC/SA)

    3 10.34%
  • IA Healy (Aus)

    1 3.45%
  • AC Gilchrist (Aus)

    0 0%
  • RW Marsh (Aus)

    0 0%
  • APE Knott (Eng)

    1 3.45%
  • TG Evans (Eng)

    1 3.45%
  • SMH Kirmani (India)

    2 6.90%
  • AJ Stewart (Eng)

    5 17.24%
  • Wasim Bari (Pak)

    0 0%
  • PJL Dujon (WI)

    1 3.45%
  • MS Dhoni (India)

    15 51.72%
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 58

Thread: Who is the worst wicket keeper to play 75 Tests as designated keeper

  1. #31
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    England
    Posts
    57,756
    Quote Originally Posted by Biryani Pillow View Post
    Russell was overated.
    He was 10 times the keeper Stewart was.
    marc71178 - President and founding member of AAAS - we don't only appreciate when he does well, but also when he's not quite so good!

    Anyone want to join the Society?

    Beware the evils of Kit-Kats - they're immoral apparently.

  2. #32
    SJS
    SJS is offline
    Hall of Fame Member SJS's Avatar
    Virus 2 Champion!
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Mumbai India
    Posts
    19,264
    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    Wasim Bari was like Bob Taylor - you just never noticed him, so he must have been doing something right

    I also think Stewart turned into a very good keeper - I remember him catching Viv Richards off Phil Tufnell at (I think) the oval one year - Viv snicked it very hard and very wide - it was as good a keeper's catch off a spinner as I've seen

    My favourite was always Engineer, though quite why such a great Lancastrian should have played for India I have no idea
    You might well ask why the persecuted Zoroastrians came to India :-)

    Completely agree about Bari and Taylor and Engineer is a personal favourite as well - with all his flamboyance.

    You are right about Stewart. He did improve which is the whole point about Dhoni. MSD has shown remarkable instincts and gifts to modify, very positively, his rustic boy-in-the-street batting style and the results are before us. I have absolutely no doubt that if there was widespread talk of his awful keeping he would make a genuine attempt to improve but everyone in India pretends he is the cats whiskers. He is not but no one is willing to say the king is nude.

    Sometimes I wonder whether people are just not willing to say or they have no clue as to what good keeping is all about. But then how can it be. Guavas jar played alongside Engineer and Kirmani and against the likes of Knott, Taylor and V
    Bari.

    There is this huge pledge of silence amongst Indian commentators that is bewildering and damaging. It is there for all to see whether it is lack of criticism for the super stars, refusal to discuss DRS, negative aspects of IPL or the exaggeration of its virtues (besides money) etc

  3. #33
    SJS
    SJS is offline
    Hall of Fame Member SJS's Avatar
    Virus 2 Champion!
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Mumbai India
    Posts
    19,264
    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    He was 10 times the keeper Stewart was.
    Russell was an awesome keeper. There have been other instances in the game of a better keeper being excluded in favour af a batsman keeper but never was a keeper of the caliber of Russell treated as shabbily and never was the difference between the protagonists more glaring. This is why Stewart gets so much bad press for his keeping - Russell's class.

  4. #34
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,998
    I think that the problem with Stewart and Dhoni is that they are expected to be expert batsman. This means that their practice time must be split between batting and keeping out of necessity.

    This I find to be a double-standard because no coach expects a specialist bowler to concentate on his batting to the extent that he can average 35-40 in the No.7 position. He spends most of time learning to bowl fast, or spinning the ball.

    So perhaps the reason that Tallon, Evans, Hendriks and all those guys were so good is because they batted No.9 and therefore could spend 80-90% of the training time catching a ball, and performing stumpings. Not sodding about in front of a bowling machine with bat in hand.

    Just a thought.


  5. #35
    SJS
    SJS is offline
    Hall of Fame Member SJS's Avatar
    Virus 2 Champion!
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Mumbai India
    Posts
    19,264
    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I think that the problem with Stewart and Dhoni is that they are expected to be expert batsman. This means that their practice time must be split between batting and keeping out of necessity.

    This I find to be a double-standard because no coach expects a specialist bowler to concentate on his batting to the extent that he can average 35-40 in the No.7 position. He spends most of time learning to bowl fast, or spinning the ball.

    So perhaps the reason that Tallon, Evans, Hendriks and all those guys were so good is because they batted No.9 and therefore could spend 80-90% of the training time catching a ball, and performing stumpings. Not sodding about in front of a bowling machine with bat in hand.

    Just a thought.
    That's true to an extent but then it never was easy being an all rounder in this game which is why top notch all rounders have been so few.

    But keeping is different from batting and bowling in a very important way. Almost without exception, every great keeper will tell you that one is either a keeper or not. Of all the cricketing skills, this is the one that needs the most natural aptitude. There haven't been great keeper who were 'manufactured' by great coaches or former keepers whereas there have been quite a few who discovered purely by chance that they had it in them.

    I think it is this natural flair and aptitude that makes this such a special skill and makes great keepers so few in comparison to other skills.

    It is possible to become a passable keeper by just coaching and training who, in the current Indian context may not even be noticed as not being a natural. However, the really top class and natural keepers will have to be discovered rather than invented.

  6. #36
    SJS
    SJS is offline
    Hall of Fame Member SJS's Avatar
    Virus 2 Champion!
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Mumbai India
    Posts
    19,264
    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    That's true to an extent but then it never was easy being an all rounder in this game which is why top notch all rounders have been so few.

    But keeping is different from batting and bowling in a very important way. Almost without exception, every great keeper will tell you that one is either a keeper or not. Of all the cricketing skills, this is the one that needs the most natural aptitude. There haven't been great keeper who were 'manufactured' by great coaches or former keepers whereas there have been quite a few who discovered purely by chance that they had it in them.

    I think it is this natural flair and aptitude that makes this such a special skill and makes great keepers so few in comparison to other skills.

    It is possible to become a passable keeper by just coaching and training who, in the current Indian context may not even be noticed as not being a natural. However, the really top class and natural keepers will have to be discovered rather than invented.
    So while Dhoni might improve as a keeper if, as I have suggested, he was convinced that he was not good enough, he will still not be a natural. Stewart improved but he would not catch up with the class of Russell or Talor before him just by concentrating on his keeping more.

    It is important to understand that what keeping asks from an individual is neither easy nor natural. Imagine in a Test match situation, in a long innings lasting, say 150 overs, doing 900 sit-ups? Then doing it again a second time in a day or so. A keeper does as many sit ups as the number of balls bowled by all his bowling team mates put together in his entire career. This itself is an awesome strain.

    Add to this the fact that these are not ordinary sit ups. You don't just go down and come up standing. You go down and then rise only as much as the ball does and stay there till the stroke is completed and THEN only you come up. This is unbelievably straining and difficult to do which is why this is what separates the great keepers from the others. Most keepers get up as that is the body's natural inclination - to continue to rise once he starts rising. To let the ball dictate how much you will rise and at what speed is not just unnatural and straining but requires a remarkable level of concentration and discipline. No batsman ever watched the ball as closely as a great wicket keeper does ball after ball after ball - doing it right through every ball, every over of every innings !

    Then there is the footwork and the complete awareness of what is happening. A goal-keeper in football doesn't just keep his eyes on the ball he is acutely aware of what the opponent is doing, his body-feints, his feet and all. A great keeper, while his eyes are focused on the ball, has an intuitive grasp of what the batsman is doing. I am amused when people talk of how difficult and well nigh impossible it is to take inner edges down the leg side.

    Yes it is difficult but you give yourself no chance unless you are doing the right thing as a keeper instinctively. Most great keepers are moving when it appears the ball is going in that direction and that invariably means the possibility of an inner edge. So many keepers have written that they move further than where the ball would end up un disturbed to give themselves a better chance in case the batsman got a touch.. The modern day keepers and the bowlers are as surprised as everyone else when an inner edge lodges in the keeper's gloves (standing up mind you) once in a blue moon.

    There are not many keepers who have written their memoirs but those who have make fascinating reading. It also shows us how little we know of what goes to make a great keeper.

    That the great former cricketers should display the same ignorance is doubly sad.
    Last edited by SJS; 05-03-2013 at 07:26 PM.

  7. #37
    State Vice-Captain
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    1,319
    Sadly, with the shorter games, especially T20 becoming more and more popular, it seems that batting > wicketkeeping for a wicketkeeper.

    At least Sri Lanka still has Prasanna keeping, whilst Sangakkara does in the shorter forms, due to the much more needed batting prowess. I have no clue why we played Haddin in the ODI's, but not in tests. I don't see Wade as having that big an advantage over him in batting.

  8. #38
    International Coach
    Suicide Bob Champion!
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Not really needed on CW
    Posts
    12,701
    SJS you mean squats and not sit ups

  9. #39
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    England
    Posts
    57,756
    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    Russell was an awesome keeper. There have been other instances in the game of a better keeper being excluded in favour af a batsman keeper but never was a keeper of the caliber of Russell treated as shabbily and never was the difference between the protagonists more glaring. This is why Stewart gets so much bad press for his keeping - Russell's class.
    I couldn't agree more, and the worst bit about it was that when keeping, Stewart spent the majority of his career averaging only a handful more runs than Russell, the runs which would've probably been picked up by him opening ahead of A.N.Other mediocre opening batsman.

  10. #40
    SJS
    SJS is offline
    Hall of Fame Member SJS's Avatar
    Virus 2 Champion!
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Mumbai India
    Posts
    19,264
    A vote each for Evans and Knott ?? Wow ! Did I ask for the worst keeper to play 75 Tests or the best ??

    Kirmani need not think much about the vote for him I guess. He is in exalted company here :o)
    Last edited by SJS; 06-03-2013 at 11:16 AM.

  11. #41
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Top floor, bottom buzzer
    Posts
    16,443
    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    A vote each for Evans and Knott ?? Wow ! Did I ask for the worst keeper to play 75 Tests or the best ??

    Kirmani need not think much about the vote for him I guess. He is in exalted company here :o)
    I guess some people take umbrage at polls where all but one option are invalid
    Every 5 years we have an election and have to decide who are the least obnoxious out of all the men. Then one gets in and they age really quickly. Which is always fun to watch.

  12. #42
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    It is a far far better place ............ etc etc
    Posts
    12,101
    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    I guess some people take umbrage at polls where all but one option are invalid
    They may have misread the title as "Who is the worstdressed wicket keeper to play 75 Tests as designated keeper"

  13. #43
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Furball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Anyone But England
    Posts
    20,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    I guess some people take umbrage at polls where all but one option are invalid
    Nah, it's the irrelevant first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth options.

  14. #44
    SJS
    SJS is offline
    Hall of Fame Member SJS's Avatar
    Virus 2 Champion!
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Mumbai India
    Posts
    19,264
    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    I guess some people take umbrage at polls where all but one option are invalid
    Possible but then they miss the whole point of this thread. I hope they do it because they somehow missed the sarcasm inherent in the title and the poll and not their secret love for Dhoni and everything he does.

    Of course, there is only one valid option and that is the point being made here.which is, to spell it out, sort of . . .

    How can such a poor keeper play 75 games at the highest level and be headed for well over a hundred . . . Maybe even the highest number of games ever by an international keeper.

    The fact that he is considered the only valid option is just a further emphasis on the validity of that question. That's all . . .

    And yes I do have an agenda . . . It is top secret though

  15. #45
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Furball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Anyone But England
    Posts
    20,147
    If Dhoni plays a further 73 Tests then I'll eat my computer.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Great Test Matches..
    By Neil Pickup in forum General
    Replies: 67
    Last Post: 04-10-2010, 07:17 PM
  2. Mystery Draft V.2 (1989-2009)
    By Mupariwa_Magic in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 492
    Last Post: 21-11-2009, 01:00 PM
  3. Surrey 2002: A Cricket Captain Diary
    By SIX AND OUT in forum General
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 17-02-2005, 08:25 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •