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Who is the worst wicket keeper to play 75 Tests as designated keeper

Who is the worst wicket keeper to play 75 Tests as designated keeper?


  • Total voters
    30

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I see someone has votd for Kirmani as the worst. Clearly whoever you are, you never saw him leep wickets. Kirmani is close to being amongst the best keepers in that list. Most people rate him as either the best or the second best (after Engineer) keeper ever produced by India.
 

burr

State Vice-Captain
So why do people think the test standard of keeping has dropped? Is it the Gilchrist phenomenon? And by that I don't mean to say Gilchrist was a terrible keeper - only the role he played in driving the game towards seeking batsmen-keepers and not vice versa.
 

CricAddict

Cricketer Of The Year
I see someone has votd for Kirmani as the worst. Clearly whoever you are, you never saw him leep wickets. Kirmani is close to being amongst the best keepers in that list. Most people rate him as either the best or the second best (after Engineer) keeper ever produced by India.
I did it SJS. Once I saw the thread title, I realised that it is going to be a Dhoni bashing thread. So my Dhoni love plus his exploits this series combined to do a random voting in the poll..
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
So why do people think the test standard of keeping has dropped? Is it the Gilchrist phenomenon? And by that I don't mean to say Gilchrist was a terrible keeper - only the role he played in driving the game towards seeking batsmen-keepers and not vice versa.
I dont think Gilchrist has such a major role in this. The tendency to look for a keeper who could bat started quite some time back. Bradman was the first top personality in the game to talk of selecting a wicket keeper, albeit a very good one, because he was the better batsman over the rival who, even though a greater gloveman was not as good a batsman.

It did not take root but the keepers were generally not expected to contribute substantially with the bat. When very good batsmen first started emerging amongst keepers (Ames) there was a tendency to run down their keeping skills because some how a top notch batsman and a top notch keeper was not a concept that was still considered possible.

Teams continued to pick keepers on glove work and if they happened to be good batsmen that was a bonus. Generally they batted between 7 and 9 in the order.

It was the advent of limited overs cricket that brought about real change.

The very concept of Test cricket and limited overs game was different in a vital respect. One needed to get twenty wickets to win a Test match whereas, theoretically you culd actually win a limited overs game without getting a single wicket. You just needed to score 1 run more than the opponents even if you lost eight wickets more than them.

This brought a fundamental change in that everyone who could contribute to extra runs, preferably quickly, was a potentially useful cog in a one day side. It did take some years but slowly the batting of the keepers became more and more important and a little bit less than perfect glove work was not considered such a big deal. This change was subtle and very gradual. Its not as if one day the cricketing world got up and decided, okay we do not need great keepers, we need keepers who can keep wickets AND score some valuable quick runs.

This did percolate to bowlers for some time and the concept of bits and pieces players brought us the Ronnie Iranis of the world but the maturing of the game showed that teams with only bits and pieces players tended not to do so well in the long run.

Unfortunately the yardstick to measure the advantages a keeper offered with his batting were difficult to weigh against the disadvantages of his less than the best available keeping.

That was okay in the limited overs game. So we had people like Dravid keeping in ODI's for very long stretches of time. But Test matches was another matter.

I think what Gilchrist brought about was a perception that his batting was more useful to Australia than his keeping. This might well have been the case, just as it was with Ames but somehow it led to the belief, wrongly I think, that but for his amazing batting, Gilchrist may not have been the best keeper available to Australia.

I think Gilchrist suffered due to comparison with a predecessor like Healy - one of the great keepers in the game's history. However, somehow, with Gilchrist the tradition of great Australian keepers that had gone on for over a century seemed to have ended. Australia was the last bastion of great keeping traditions. England had already succumbed to the temptation of including Alec Stewart as designated keeper to be the first amongst two great keeper producing countries to openly play a keeper clearly not the best in the land.

I dont think the same was true for Gilchrist. Not an all time great as a keeper, Gilchrist was still a very fine keeper indeed and even if he had been half the batsman he was, he might still have been Australia's choice as keeper. Its just that his batting made people undervalue his keeping abilities and comparisons with Healy did not help.

The case of Dhoni, Priior and others like that are completely different, These people have brought shoddy keeping to become accepted. This was not the case with Gilchrist who could be spectacular.

Besides limited overs game, the general decline in spinning pools around the world too may have contributed to this for standing back exposes the differences between a modest and a great keeper to a far less significant extent than does standing up to the stumps.

By the way, those who keep running down Kamran Akmal do him a bit of injustice. Akmal is a strange case. I have seen him keep brilliantly as well as miss very shoddily. His inconsistency is baffling. He is not technically anywhere near half as bad as MS Dhoni. He just seems to have strange lapses in concentration. Unfortunately, other doubts about him cast a shadow on any such traits in a cricketer like Akmal. But I maintain that kamran has always had the makings of a top class keeper and the fact that he is inconsistent is inexplicable to put it mildly.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Rod had a poor first game against England and the English gave him the name of Iron Gloves. That only lasted a few matches though.

Rod was exceptional keeping to pace but was capable but nothing special when keeping to spin (Heally was certainly better) .

Rods great strength was his anticipation / movement to pace bowling.

Technically Rod was not as good/clean as Heally or Knot, but Rod does have a higher wicket per test ratio than either Heally or Knot. I think Rod's better movement/agility to pace bowlers meant he got his hands on more catches than Heally.
THis is purely a function of the type of attack. An attack dominated by grat fast bowlers like Lillee and Thomson and no major spinner who contributed any significant bit to the wicket taking dutie, is bound to have more dismissals going to keepers. Pacers have more catches behind the stumps and in the slips while spinners get their catches more in front of the wickets.

Secondly, with keepers standing back more and more, they tend to take catches right upto the second slip's lap.

I am sure if instead of Shane Warne and McGrath, Gilchrist (or Healy for that matter) had Lillee and McGrath as the main bowlers to whom he kept wickets, his dismissals per test would have been as impressive.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Of the ones I've had a semi-decent look at (Dujon, Healy, Gilly, Dhoni, Stewart, Boucher) it's Dhoni.

Stewie seems to be being slightly underrated by some. Started off as competent (he was never as bad as early period Prior, much less Wade) but actually turned his keeping into a virtue by hard yakka. Just suffered by comparison to the chap he replaced, the nonparil RC Russell, who's still the best I've seen.
 

Biryani Pillow

U19 Vice-Captain
Of the ones I've had a semi-decent look at (Dujon, Healy, Gilly, Dhoni, Stewart, Boucher) it's Dhoni.

Stewie seems to be being slightly underrated by some. Started off as competent (he was never as bad as early period Prior, much less Wade) but actually turned his keeping into a virtue by hard yakka. Just suffered by comparison to the chap he replaced, the nonparil RC Russell, who's still the best I've seen.
Russell was overated.

Nowhere near the standard of Knott or Taylor.

Kirmhani is the best Indian keeper I've seen - in fact I'd take him 3rd over all of those I've seen.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Wasim Bari was like Bob Taylor - you just never noticed him, so he must have been doing something right

I also think Stewart turned into a very good keeper - I remember him catching Viv Richards off Phil Tufnell at (I think) the oval one year - Viv snicked it very hard and very wide - it was as good a keeper's catch off a spinner as I've seen

My favourite was always Engineer, though quite why such a great Lancastrian should have played for India I have no idea
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Wasim Bari was like Bob Taylor - you just never noticed him, so he must have been doing something right

I also think Stewart turned into a very good keeper - I remember him catching Viv Richards off Phil Tufnell at (I think) the oval one year - Viv snicked it very hard and very wide - it was as good a keeper's catch off a spinner as I've seen

My favourite was always Engineer, though quite why such a great Lancastrian should have played for India I have no idea
You might well ask why the persecuted Zoroastrians came to India :-)

Completely agree about Bari and Taylor and Engineer is a personal favourite as well - with all his flamboyance.

You are right about Stewart. He did improve which is the whole point about Dhoni. MSD has shown remarkable instincts and gifts to modify, very positively, his rustic boy-in-the-street batting style and the results are before us. I have absolutely no doubt that if there was widespread talk of his awful keeping he would make a genuine attempt to improve but everyone in India pretends he is the cats whiskers. He is not but no one is willing to say the king is nude.

Sometimes I wonder whether people are just not willing to say or they have no clue as to what good keeping is all about. But then how can it be. Guavas jar played alongside Engineer and Kirmani and against the likes of Knott, Taylor and V
Bari.

There is this huge pledge of silence amongst Indian commentators that is bewildering and damaging. It is there for all to see whether it is lack of criticism for the super stars, refusal to discuss DRS, negative aspects of IPL or the exaggeration of its virtues (besides money) etc
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
He was 10 times the keeper Stewart was.
Russell was an awesome keeper. There have been other instances in the game of a better keeper being excluded in favour af a batsman keeper but never was a keeper of the caliber of Russell treated as shabbily and never was the difference between the protagonists more glaring. This is why Stewart gets so much bad press for his keeping - Russell's class.
 

watson

Banned
I think that the problem with Stewart and Dhoni is that they are expected to be expert batsman. This means that their practice time must be split between batting and keeping out of necessity.

This I find to be a double-standard because no coach expects a specialist bowler to concentate on his batting to the extent that he can average 35-40 in the No.7 position. He spends most of time learning to bowl fast, or spinning the ball.

So perhaps the reason that Tallon, Evans, Hendriks and all those guys were so good is because they batted No.9 and therefore could spend 80-90% of the training time catching a ball, and performing stumpings. Not sodding about in front of a bowling machine with bat in hand.

Just a thought.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I think that the problem with Stewart and Dhoni is that they are expected to be expert batsman. This means that their practice time must be split between batting and keeping out of necessity.

This I find to be a double-standard because no coach expects a specialist bowler to concentate on his batting to the extent that he can average 35-40 in the No.7 position. He spends most of time learning to bowl fast, or spinning the ball.

So perhaps the reason that Tallon, Evans, Hendriks and all those guys were so good is because they batted No.9 and therefore could spend 80-90% of the training time catching a ball, and performing stumpings. Not sodding about in front of a bowling machine with bat in hand.

Just a thought.
That's true to an extent but then it never was easy being an all rounder in this game which is why top notch all rounders have been so few.

But keeping is different from batting and bowling in a very important way. Almost without exception, every great keeper will tell you that one is either a keeper or not. Of all the cricketing skills, this is the one that needs the most natural aptitude. There haven't been great keeper who were 'manufactured' by great coaches or former keepers whereas there have been quite a few who discovered purely by chance that they had it in them.

I think it is this natural flair and aptitude that makes this such a special skill and makes great keepers so few in comparison to other skills.

It is possible to become a passable keeper by just coaching and training who, in the current Indian context may not even be noticed as not being a natural. However, the really top class and natural keepers will have to be discovered rather than invented.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
That's true to an extent but then it never was easy being an all rounder in this game which is why top notch all rounders have been so few.

But keeping is different from batting and bowling in a very important way. Almost without exception, every great keeper will tell you that one is either a keeper or not. Of all the cricketing skills, this is the one that needs the most natural aptitude. There haven't been great keeper who were 'manufactured' by great coaches or former keepers whereas there have been quite a few who discovered purely by chance that they had it in them.

I think it is this natural flair and aptitude that makes this such a special skill and makes great keepers so few in comparison to other skills.

It is possible to become a passable keeper by just coaching and training who, in the current Indian context may not even be noticed as not being a natural. However, the really top class and natural keepers will have to be discovered rather than invented.
So while Dhoni might improve as a keeper if, as I have suggested, he was convinced that he was not good enough, he will still not be a natural. Stewart improved but he would not catch up with the class of Russell or Talor before him just by concentrating on his keeping more.

It is important to understand that what keeping asks from an individual is neither easy nor natural. Imagine in a Test match situation, in a long innings lasting, say 150 overs, doing 900 sit-ups? Then doing it again a second time in a day or so. A keeper does as many sit ups as the number of balls bowled by all his bowling team mates put together in his entire career. This itself is an awesome strain.

Add to this the fact that these are not ordinary sit ups. You don't just go down and come up standing. You go down and then rise only as much as the ball does and stay there till the stroke is completed and THEN only you come up. This is unbelievably straining and difficult to do which is why this is what separates the great keepers from the others. Most keepers get up as that is the body's natural inclination - to continue to rise once he starts rising. To let the ball dictate how much you will rise and at what speed is not just unnatural and straining but requires a remarkable level of concentration and discipline. No batsman ever watched the ball as closely as a great wicket keeper does ball after ball after ball - doing it right through every ball, every over of every innings !

Then there is the footwork and the complete awareness of what is happening. A goal-keeper in football doesn't just keep his eyes on the ball he is acutely aware of what the opponent is doing, his body-feints, his feet and all. A great keeper, while his eyes are focused on the ball, has an intuitive grasp of what the batsman is doing. I am amused when people talk of how difficult and well nigh impossible it is to take inner edges down the leg side.

Yes it is difficult but you give yourself no chance unless you are doing the right thing as a keeper instinctively. Most great keepers are moving when it appears the ball is going in that direction and that invariably means the possibility of an inner edge. So many keepers have written that they move further than where the ball would end up un disturbed to give themselves a better chance in case the batsman got a touch.. The modern day keepers and the bowlers are as surprised as everyone else when an inner edge lodges in the keeper's gloves (standing up mind you) once in a blue moon.

There are not many keepers who have written their memoirs but those who have make fascinating reading. It also shows us how little we know of what goes to make a great keeper.

That the great former cricketers should display the same ignorance is doubly sad.
 
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Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
Sadly, with the shorter games, especially T20 becoming more and more popular, it seems that batting > wicketkeeping for a wicketkeeper.

At least Sri Lanka still has Prasanna keeping, whilst Sangakkara does in the shorter forms, due to the much more needed batting prowess. I have no clue why we played Haddin in the ODI's, but not in tests. I don't see Wade as having that big an advantage over him in batting.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Russell was an awesome keeper. There have been other instances in the game of a better keeper being excluded in favour af a batsman keeper but never was a keeper of the caliber of Russell treated as shabbily and never was the difference between the protagonists more glaring. This is why Stewart gets so much bad press for his keeping - Russell's class.
I couldn't agree more, and the worst bit about it was that when keeping, Stewart spent the majority of his career averaging only a handful more runs than Russell, the runs which would've probably been picked up by him opening ahead of A.N.Other mediocre opening batsman.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
A vote each for Evans and Knott ?? Wow ! Did I ask for the worst keeper to play 75 Tests or the best ??

Kirmani need not think much about the vote for him I guess. He is in exalted company here :o)
 
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