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Thread: Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

  1. #121
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPrez View Post
    Basically, Miller is a version of Mike Proctor with slightly better batting, and more convincingly worse bowling.

    I still rate Kallis ahead of guys like Imran and Proctor as an all-rounder due to the fact that I feel it is much harder to be a sustainable pace-bowling batting all-rounder as opposed to a bowling one. Initially some might feel that the strain is equal, but if you think about it Kallis put all of his effort into his batting, and then had to come out and bowl at close to 140kph, whereas Proccy/Imran had much less strain on themselves in batting at 7 or wherever.
    The problem with someone like Kallis in an all-time line-up is that he is not getting into the team on his batting alone (well, very unlikely) and his bowling - like Sobers - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.

    Every player has to bat, but not every player has to bowl. Imran on his bowling alone gets in, and he is one of the best batsmen in terms of bowling all-rounders.

    The same, maybe even more, goes for Miller. I don't really know about Proctor's bowling but was he the best in the world at any stage? Because for a time Miller arguably was - or was as good as Lindwall was.
    Last edited by Ikki; 10-02-2013 at 11:41 AM.
    I think there'll sooner be another Bradman than another Warne. - Gidgeon Haigh

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  2. #122
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    On a seamer's wicket Sobers was a top class bowler - he was well nigh unplayable at Lord's in this match, to give an isolated example - but as he should be playing in any truly representative all time XI as a batsman anyway the argument about his bowling is purely academic anyway

    ....... and as for Miller he's a pain in the neck in these sort of debates because he is the best possible example of why stats don't give you a full picture
    By that do you mean he's better or worse than his stats represent?
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    Disclaimer: I am a biased South African. Anything I say is likely to have something in it that ultimately favours the Proteas.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPrez View Post
    By that do you mean he's better or worse than his stats represent?
    Not sure what Fred means, but imo he was a FAR better batsman than his stats indicate.

  4. #124
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    The problem with someone like Kallis in an all-time line-up is that he is not getting into the team on his batting alone and his bowling - like Sobers - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.

    Every player has to bat, but not every player has to bowl. Imran on his bowling alone gets in, and he is one of the best batsmen in terms of bowling all-rounders.

    The same, maybe even more, goes for Miller. I don't really know about Proctor's bowling but was he the best in the world at any stage? Because for a time Miller arguably was - or was as good as Lindwall was.
    He isn't? He is for me...

    And Proctor probably was considered the best in the world for a period, even if he couldn't prove it by dominating heaps of tests.

    Your second paragraph is misleading, as at least one of the top 6 in any team should be able to turn their arm over. 3 pacers and a spinner really isn't sufficient for a match against another ATG team - they're going to fatigue way too quickly. That's why, assuming you have a keeper at 7, one of your top 6 must be an all-rounder. They don't have to bowl to the level of a McGrath, Marshall etc, but they need to be competent enough to bowl a few overs at this level. Kallis and Sobers both do this perfectly.

    As I said in my ATG team, I don't feel it is needed to pick one or the other. I see space for both - Kallis as a defensive batsman, and Sobers makes it over Viv.... just. I'm still not really sure about the latter, but yeah.


  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPrez View Post
    Basically, Miller is a version of Mike Proctor with slightly better batting, and more convincingly worse bowling.
    Comparing Procter and Miller's first class stats will give a better, and fairer, indication.

    Procter was a great cricketer, but I think Miller was a far better batsman.

  6. #126
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyanash89 View Post
    Having Sobers as a third seamer is bordering on ridiculous... he was a decent bowler, no more. Would be like picking Miller at No. 5... which some people have done, amazingly
    That's because Miller is a #5 - he was a top order bat for one of the greatest sides of all time (The Invincibles).

    If you are fitting him into a team, it's likely to be along these picks:

    Hutton
    Hobbs
    Bradman
    Richards
    Miller
    Sobers
    Gilchrist
    Bowler1
    Bowler2
    Bowler3
    Bowler4

    Sobers is the greatest #6 of all-time, a natural position for him. Same with Gilchrist at 7. The other batsmen above him (pick who you like if you disagree with the names) are batting at their preferred positions and the bowlers aren't going to be better batsmen than Miller because he's the best bowler who can bat.

    So IMO then the only logical rejig is:

    Hutton
    Hobbs
    Bradman
    Richards
    Sobers
    Gilchrist
    Miller
    Bowler1
    Bowler2
    Bowler3
    Bowler4

    Where, sure, Gilchrist and Sobers are batting above an inferior batsman as conventional logic would dictate; but it didn't really hinder them batting at 6 and 7 as that is where they usually bat anyway. Whereas Miller's preferred (or best/most comfortable position on record) is at #5, he is now being asked to bat at #7 - an alien position to him.

    The only other reasonable position for him to bat that low is if instead of another specialist seamer you pick another batting all-rounder like Kallis; which means you are then relying on 4 (not 5) specialist (or comparably able to them) bowlers and one of them (Miller) is likely to be a risk considering the work-load.

  7. #127
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    I think the debate isn't that Miller is batting in the wrong position; more that Miller can't be a justified top 6 batsman in an ATG team as he quite frankly isn't good enough.

  8. #128
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPrez View Post
    He isn't? He is for me...
    I doubt for most people Kallis gets in purely as a batsman. Even if he does, his bowling has the same problem as Sobers'.

    And Proctor probably was considered the best in the world for a period, even if he couldn't prove it by dominating heaps of tests.
    By his record he can't be considered that because of the small sample. I meant in terms of anecdotal evidence; were people calling him the best bowler in the world?

    Your second paragraph is misleading, as at least one of the top 6 in any team should be able to turn their arm over. 3 pacers and a spinner really isn't sufficient for a match against another ATG team - they're going to fatigue way too quickly. That's why, assuming you have a keeper at 7, one of your top 6 must be an all-rounder. They don't have to bowl to the level of a McGrath, Marshall etc, but they need to be competent enough to bowl a few overs at this level. Kallis and Sobers both do this perfectly.

    As I said in my ATG team, I don't feel it is needed to pick one or the other. I see space for both - Kallis as a defensive batsman, and Sobers makes it over Viv.... just. I'm still not really sure about the latter, but yeah.
    You're basically advocating 5 bowlers, which is fine...but why pick Sobers and Kallis to do that job when you can have someone like Miller or Imran?

    If you have, let's say, 3 seamers + 2 spinners for example; Lillee, Marshall and Miller is a far better trio than Lillee, Marshall and Kallis/Sobers.

    The drop off is quite big. It is the difference between a Michael Kasprowicz and a Glenn McGrath. If two such incredible teams are going against each other then the difference is going to be advantageous to one side clearly. We're talking about front-line bowlers...not simply part-timers, if that is what you meant by rolling an arm over.
    Last edited by Ikki; 10-02-2013 at 12:06 PM.

  9. #129
    State Regular akilana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    What's risky about it?

    Whether you bat Miller at 5 or 8, he still has to bat and since he is the best batsman of the bowling all-rounders it's fine. On the other hand, not everyone has to bowl. Therein the difference exists.
    Miller is a great all rounder but he cannot make an ATG on his batting or bowling alone. There are far better batsmen to occupy positions 1-6 and there are far better bowlers that you can pick for your team. He's going to weaken batting if he's batting iin the top 6 and he'll weaken your bowling attack if he's going to be playing at 8(picked as a bowler)

  10. #130
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPrez View Post
    I think the debate isn't that Miller is batting in the wrong position; more that Miller can't be a justified top 6 batsman in an ATG team as he quite frankly isn't good enough.
    But the point is being missed: for it doesn't matter whether he is because it doesn't hurt his teammates' batting and it enhances his.

    Batting him out of order simply for the sake of convention is actually a net loss to the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by akilana View Post
    Miller is a great all rounder but he cannot make an ATG on his batting or bowling alone. There are far better batsmen to occupy positions 1-6 and there are far better bowlers that you can pick for your team. He's going to weaken batting if he's batting iin the top 6 and he'll weaken your bowling attack if he's going to be playing at 8(picked as a bowler)
    All bowling all-rounders will weaken the batting. But, that doesn't matter...bowlers have to bat. Batsmen don't have to bowl.

    And the line-up suggested is the best way to get the most out of every player. Miller as a 3rd seamer is on par with anyone you'll care to name (the only non ATG stat about Miller is his wickets-per-match, which matters very little in a 5 man bowling attack where he is the 3rd seamer. Yet none of the other bowlers are on his level in terms of batting.
    Last edited by Ikki; 10-02-2013 at 12:04 PM.

  11. #131
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    The problem with someone like Kallis in an all-time line-up is that he is not getting into the team on his batting alone (well, very unlikely) and his bowling - like Sobers - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.

    Every player has to bat, but not every player has to bowl. Imran on his bowling alone gets in, and he is one of the best batsmen in terms of bowling all-rounders.

    The same, maybe even more, goes for Miller. I don't really know about Proctor's bowling but was he the best in the world at any stage? Because for a time Miller arguably was - or was as good as Lindwall was.
    Miller was not better than Lindwall, Miller especially in the '48 series was a shock bowler. Short bursts with the every 55 overs new ball and take wickets, Lindwall bowled longer spells especially with the older ball and one of the best of All Time.

    So similarily Miller cannot get into an ATG first team on his bowling alone and his batting like Sobers bowling - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.
    The difference being is that Sobers's and Kallis's bowling is good enough to be the fifth bowler, Miller is not good enough to be the #5 or #6 batsman.
    All being said, I do belive Miller is one of the best three bowling AR's is the history of the game and quite easily make my second team, with Kallis, as my third seamer.
    1st XI
    Hutton | Hobbs | Bradman* | Richards^ | Tendulkar | Sobers5^ | Gilchrist+ | Khan3 | Marshall1 | Warne4^ | McGrath2
    2nd XI
    Sutcliffe | Gavaskar* | Headley | Chappell^ | Lara^ | Kallis5^ | Knott+ | Hadlee3 | Ambrose2 | Lillee1 | Muralitharan4
    3rd XI
    Greenidge | Richards^ | Ponting^ | Pollock | Hammond^ | Worrell5* | Waite+ | Akram3 | Steyn1 | Holding2 | O'Reilly4
    4th XI
    Morris | Simpson^ | Sangakkara | Weekes^ | Border*^ | Walcott+ | Faulkner5 | Laker4 | Trueman1 | Garner3 | Donald2

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by akilana View Post
    Miller is a great all rounder but he cannot make an ATG on his batting or bowling alone. There are far better batsmen to occupy positions 1-6 and there are far better bowlers that you can pick for your team. He's going to weaken batting if he's batting iin the top 6 and he'll weaken your bowling attack if he's going to be playing at 8(picked as a bowler)
    I think the thing being discussed here is that he is being picked as a genuine all rounder. There might be better batsmen than him, and there might be better bowlers than him, but the combo he brings to the team is pretty incredible:

    - test batsman who batted at #5 most of his career (and averaged over 40 there)
    - legitimate opening bowler with a bowling average of 22..

    There is no one else who can do this. So if you want to pick two spinners, then Miller is a massive consideration.

  13. #133
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    I doubt for most people Kallis gets in purely as a batsman. Even if he is, his bowling has the same problem as Sobers'.



    By his record he can't be considered that because of the small sample. I meant in terms of anecdotal evidence; where people calling him the best bowler in the world?



    You're basically advocating 5 bowlers, which is fine...but why pick Sobers and Kallis to do that job when you can have someone like Miller or Imran?

    If you have, let's say, 3 seamers + 2 spinners for example; Lillee, Marshall and Miller is a far better trio than Lillee, Marshall and Kallis/Sobers.

    The drop off is quite big. It is the difference between a Michael Kasprowicz and a Glenn McGrath. If two such incredible teams are going against each other then the difference is going to be advantageous to one side clearly. We're talking about front-line bowlers...not simply part-timers, if that is what you meant by rolling an arm over.
    As I said, that was my opinion.

    Cbf doing research on it but I can only imagine. I'm sure someone can confirm.

    You're missing the point completely. A quality 6th batsman is more important than a quality 5th bowler. The fifth bowler is only really needed as a bowler that gives a break to the main bowlers, but at the same time is more than just a part-timer that can get caned around. The 6th batsman must be relied on to score big runs just as any other top 6 batsman. It's basic team composition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    But the point is being missed: for it doesn't matter whether he is because it doesn't hurt his teammate's batting and it enhances his.

    Batting him out of order simply for the sake of convention is actually a net loss to the team.
    Again, you're missing my point. The debate, as far as I can tell, is that he shouldn't be in the batting order at all. His batting isn't good enough to warrant being selected in the top 6 at all, regardless of how good his bowling is. Having 6 ATG batsmen is more important than having 5 ATG bowlers.

  14. #134
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Miller was not better than Lindwall, Miller especially in the '48 series was a shock bowler. Short bursts with the every 55 overs new ball and take wickets, Lindwall bowled longer spells especially with the older ball and one of the best of All Time.

    So similarily Miller cannot get into an ATG first team on his bowling alone and his batting like Sobers bowling - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.
    The difference being is that Sobers's and Kallis's bowling is good enough to be the fifth bowler, Miller is not good enough to be the #5 or #6 batsman.
    All being said, I do belive Miller is one of the best three bowling AR's is the history of the game and quite easily make my second team, with Kallis, as my third seamer.
    No, they're not.

    Miller is not being picked as the 5th best batsman in the team. The positioning of Miller doesn't matter. You can bat him at #8 if it makes you happy. He is still the best batsman of the bowling all-rounders.

    If you don't want a bowling all-rounder, you simply do not pick him. But if you do, then his all-rounder ability is being utilised to a much greater extent than someone like Sobers or Kallis (because their bowling, if used, is a liability). Whereas all bowlers have to bat. I feel people are not appreciating this very important fact.

  15. #135
    State Regular akilana's Avatar
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    Picking an all rounder who's equally good in both batting and bowling for an ATG team will weaken bowling or batting depending on what you are pickinmg him for. Sobers wasn't picked for his all round ability but for his batting alone. I will want the best six batsmen and best 4 bowlers and a good keeper in the team.

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