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Thread: Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I have no idea what you're even talking about. The first paragraph doesn't make any sense to me.

    Plenty of Grace's contemporaries could be considered as his equal or his better as a batsman. Can you name some of Bradman's contemporaries that could be considered his equal, or his better?
    headley.

    1930s ( v eng)
    don - 33 matches 19 centuries , avg.102.77
    headley - 14 , 8 , 78.21
    its like averaging 52 and 40 . isnt it ?
    consider other factors- sticky wickets , team strength..etc

    they r comparable

  2. #197
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    While I do not go as far as Sobers1 and I do acknowledge that Bradman is the best batsman in the history of the great game, I do support that Headley was his cloest comtemporary and rival. Their averages againts England are comparable, especially if one excludes his matches after the war which was inadvisable at best, with Bradman having an approximate 10 run advantage. Where the significant difference in their averages comes in where as the other team that Headley faced was a strong Australia team away from home, Bradman faced only minnows and all at home. He averaged over 200 and 178 vs South Africa and India with very weak attacks. Had he had to face his own team instead of the minnows of his time and Headley got to face N.Z, India or S.A. the numbers may well have been reversed. Let me repeat that I do consider the Don to be the best, but the difference between the two are not double as some proport.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Trumper View Post
    But 60s are comparatively weaker in bowling compared to the decade before or after. And Sobers was a regular top 10 (top 5 even) bowler at that time. He is better than average at the time he was playing. Sobers actually bowled roughly 2000 more balls while playing less than 80 tests compared to Kallis. He was actually a proper bowler in the side. His record may not be brilliant, but he makes his team on his bowling alone. Hell there were times in mid 60s when he would make a world XI on his bowling alone. That is not something that can be completely dismissed.
    You're wrong, Sobers was worse than the average of his era (his career). I've already calculated all this. For a few years he was a proper front-line bowler, in a pretty disappointing era. But on the whole his record was still below average for his time.
    Last edited by Ikki; 15-02-2013 at 08:37 AM.
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    Here are his figures, and I put the spinner figures in case you think they hurt his figures. That he bowled pace for the majority of the 60s still can't offset that he isn't even as good as the average spinner in his time.

    Code:
    Overall              AVG       SR
    Sobers:             34.03     91.9
    World avg:          31.18     79.8
    Spinner avg:        32.71     88.9
    If we go by his peak years 61-68 where he bowled as a pacer:
    Code:
    Peak                 AVG       SR
    Sobers:             27.93     76.3
    World avg:          32.84     81.9
    Pacer avg:          30.80     72.6
    And even then, they're not that impressive for a peak. He is actually a few notches cheaper but conversely a few slower than the average pacer of his peak.
    Last edited by Ikki; 15-02-2013 at 08:38 AM.


  5. #200
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    But Ikki you are missing the point, he is the fifth bowler, he would be there to give relief and keep things tight and even sneak ot a wicket, all things he and Kallos was capable of doing. They aee not there as strike bowlers or to bowl out the side.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    But Ikki you are missing the point, he is the fifth bowler, he would be there to give relief and keep things tight and even sneak ot a wicket, all things he and Kallos was capable of doing. They aee not there as strike bowlers or to bowl out the side.
    Actually this only became a topic of discussion when some people chose him as the third seamer to play two spinners in the team, which imo is overrating Sobers in the extreme. Dont think anyone denies that Sobers is a superb fifth bowler (fourth seamer) option
    Last edited by Satyanash89; 15-02-2013 at 09:09 AM.

  7. #202
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    While I do not go as far as Sobers1 and I do acknowledge that Bradman is the best batsman in the history of the great game, I do support that Headley was his cloest comtemporary and rival. Their averages againts England are comparable, especially if one excludes his matches after the war which was inadvisable at best, with Bradman having an approximate 10 run advantage. Where the significant difference in their averages comes in where as the other team that Headley faced was a strong Australia team away from home, Bradman faced only minnows and all at home. He averaged over 200 and 178 vs South Africa and India with very weak attacks. Had he had to face his own team instead of the minnows of his time and Headley got to face N.Z, India or S.A. the numbers may well have been reversed. Let me repeat that I do consider the Don to be the best, but the difference between the two are not double as some proport.
    I don't necessarily disagree with you but you do need to bear in mind that the England sides Headley faced in the Caribbean were some way below full strength, particularly in bowling

  8. #203
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    The first one yes. Because of a less than ispiring performance by our first touring team to England. They didn't make that mistake again.

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    at the age of 45 , hobbs averaged 50-55

    add him to the list of super human batsmen (along with WG , don and headley )

  10. #205
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    The first one yes. Because of a less than ispiring performance by our first touring team to England. They didn't make that mistake again.
    With respect they did - the batting was much stronger in 34/35, but of the bowlers who Headley faced only Ken Farnes had played in the 34 Ashes

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    But Ikki you are missing the point, he is the fifth bowler, he would be there to give relief and keep things tight and even sneak ot a wicket, all things he and Kallos was capable of doing. They aee not there as strike bowlers or to bowl out the side.
    If all you want is someone to bowl a few cheap overs then you're not using them as an all-rounder. That's the kind of job a part-timer like Richards would do.

    But considering the match-up the proposed line-up will be up against why would you bowl him at all? I'd rather bowl 4 ATG bowlers and let them rotate than to give any overs to someone who is liable to lose the match for me in those few overs. 4 ATG bowlers average ~90-100 overs an inning anyway.
    Last edited by Ikki; 15-02-2013 at 12:10 PM.

  12. #207
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Understand your perspective.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by sobers no:1 View Post
    at the age of 45 , hobbs averaged 50-55

    add him to the list of super human batsmen (along with WG , don and headley )
    Who said he wasn't a great batsman?

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Who said he wasn't a great batsman?
    sobers no:1 I think

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    The first one yes. Because of a less than ispiring performance by our first touring team to England. They didn't make that mistake again.
    Wrong. Headley played 3 full series against Eng at home and both were well under full strength. Bradman played against full strength teams all the time. Therefore the facts are the opposite as you suggest. Headley faced the weaker opponents. Bradman the stronger.

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