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Thread: Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

  1. #136
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPrez View Post
    By that do you mean he's better or worse than his stats represent?
    Could have made that a bit clearer couldn't I

    I rate Miller very highly indeed, even though he's Australian

  2. #137
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akilana View Post
    Picking an all rounder who's equally good in both batting and bowling for an ATG team will weaken bowling or batting depending on what you are pickinmg him for. Sobers wasn't picked for his all round ability but for his batting alone. I will want the best six batsmen and best 4 bowlers and a good keeper in the team.
    This is pretty much it. You should be able to back your top 6 as specialist batsmen to get you a sufficient score, and you should be able to back your 4 specialist bowlers to get you 20 wickets in a match. The batting of the bowling all-rounder and the bowling of the batting all-rounders are extras that should fall way below specialist skills in the pecking order.
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    Disclaimer: I am a biased South African. Anything I say is likely to have something in it that ultimately favours the Proteas.

  3. #138
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    Could have made that a bit clearer couldn't I

    I rate Miller very highly indeed, even though he's Australian
    Ha. That has certainly put him a few notches up in my ratings of him - an Englishman pushing an Aussie's stocks!

  4. #139
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPrez View Post
    As I said, that was my opinion.

    Cbf doing research on it but I can only imagine. I'm sure someone can confirm.

    You're missing the point completely. A quality 6th batsman is more important than a quality 5th bowler. The fifth bowler is only really needed as a bowler that gives a break to the main bowlers, but at the same time is more than just a part-timer that can get caned around. The 6th batsman must be relied on to score big runs just as any other top 6 batsman. It's basic team composition.
    How so?

    Miller is 10 runs off on average for being an ATG for a #5. Miller more than makes up for that difference in being superior to Kallis/Sobers as a bowler - not only saving more runs than they would go for, but getting more wickets and saving overs by doing so at a faster rate.

    For example, this is something I did a long way back:

    Per Inning Performance:

    Batting
    Sobers: 50 runs
    Miller: 34 runs

    Bowling
    Sobers: 1.5 wickets for 51 runs and 138 balls
    Miller: 1.8 wickets for 41 runs and 111 balls

    Difference: 16 runs or 0.3 wickets 10 less runs and 27 less balls conceded.

    Again, you're missing my point. The debate, as far as I can tell, is that he shouldn't be in the batting order at all. His batting isn't good enough to warrant being selected in the top 6 at all, regardless of how good his bowling is. Having 6 ATG batsmen is more important than having 5 ATG bowlers.
    Again, my reply in the above becomes relevant.

    But that's not the case with bowling all-rounders. They have to bat. So, it's preferential to have the best batting bowler. As I said, that is IF you want an all-rounder. Some sides will just go 6 specialists bats - a Gilchrist - and 4 front line bowlers. That's reasonable. I am saying, however, if you want to utilise an all-rounder, you'd be stupid to give Kallis or Sobers any overs. You are purposely hindering yourself because you are choosing to bowl an inferior bowler (not everyone has to bowl), but you do not have a choice on who bats because everybody has to. Using them to bowl a few overs - or as a throw-the-kitchen-sink move is not using them as all-rounders, that would be using them as part-timers.
    Last edited by Ikki; 10-02-2013 at 12:27 PM.
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  5. #140
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    How so?

    Miller is 10 runs off on average for being an ATG for a #5. Miller more than makes up for that difference in being superior to Kallis/Sobers as a bowler - not only saving more runs than they would go for, but getting more wickets and saving overs by doing so at a faster rate.



    Again, my reply in the above becomes relevant.

    But that's not the case with bowling all-rounders. They have to bat. So, it's preferential to have the best batting bowler. As I said, that is IF you want an all-rounder. Some sides will just go 6 specialists bats - a Gilchrist - and 4 front line bowlers. That's reasonable. I am saying, however, if you want to utilise an all-rounder, you'd be stupid to give Kallis or Sobers any overs. You are purposely hindering yourself because you are choosing to bowl an inferior bowler (not everyone has to bowl), but you do not have a choice on who bats because everybody has to. Using them to bowl a few overs - or as a throw-the-kitchen-sink move is not using them as all-rounders, that would be using them as part-timers.
    And again this highlights our disagreement with regards to the role of the fifth bowler. Five genuine bowlers doesn't give one sufficient advantage over four, if you back your best four bowlers. You get much more benefit out of putting a superior batsman in. You see, in my mind a bowling line-up of Marshall, McGrath and A.N.Other ATG bowler along with Warne doesn't need a specialist, 22-averaging bowler as much as a top 5 with the names Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, SRT and Viv needs a Sobers who averages 57 with the bat or whatever. It's a tried-and-tested formula, and the general conclusion as can be seen by the standard construction of a Test line up is the genuine 6th batsman gives more benefit than the genuine fifth bowler.

  6. #141
    International Vice-Captain Red Hill's Avatar
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    I generally pick a straightforward team in an ATG discussion:

    Hobbs
    Sutcliffe/Gavaskar/Hutton
    Bradman
    Tendulkar/Chappell/Lara/Hammond
    V. Richards
    Sobers
    Knott/ Gilchrist
    Hadlee
    Marshall
    Warne
    Lillee


    However, if I wanted to play two spinners, I think I'd have to include Miller:

    Hobbs
    Sutcliffe/Gavaskar/Hutton
    Bradman
    V. Richards
    Miller
    Sobers
    Knott/Gilchrist
    Marshall
    Warne
    Lillee
    Murali


    Imran is the other option, but I think Miller was a better batsman than Imran.

  7. #142
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I generally pick a straightforward team in an ATG discussion:

    Hobbs
    Sutcliffe/Gavaskar/Hutton
    Bradman
    Tendulkar/Chappell/Lara/Hammond
    V. Richards
    Sobers
    Knott/ Gilchrist
    Hadlee
    Marshall
    Warne
    Lillee


    However, if I wanted to play two spinners, I think I'd have to include Miller:

    Hobbs
    Sutcliffe/Gavaskar/Hutton
    Bradman
    V. Richards
    Miller
    Sobers
    Knott/Gilchrist
    Marshall
    Warne
    Lillee
    Murali


    Imran is the other option, but I think Miller was a better batsman than Imran.
    My argument to your second team would be that if you felt the need to have two spinners in your team, you would be playing on a spinning track. In this case, you wouldn't want to be carrying a superfluous pacer if you're particularly selecting your team to suit the spinning conditions.

  8. #143
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPrez View Post
    And again this highlights our disagreement with regards to the role of the fifth bowler. Five genuine bowlers doesn't give one sufficient advantage over four, if you back your best four bowlers. You get much more benefit out of putting a superior batsman in. You see, in my mind a bowling line-up of Marshall, McGrath and A.N.Other ATG bowler along with Warne doesn't need a specialist, 22-averaging bowler as much as a top 5 with the names Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, SRT and Viv needs a Sobers who averages 57 with the bat or whatever. It's a tried-and-tested formula, and the general conclusion as can be seen by the standard construction of a Test line up is the genuine 6th batsman gives more benefit than the genuine fifth bowler.
    Yes, but why would you purposely risk that anyway? What you're saying, as far as it makes sense to me, is that you're basically using Sobers/Kallis as a part-timer not a genuine all-rounder.

    You might assume you will not need it 9/10...but if this is an Earth XI vs a Mars XI and the fate of the World is on the line (silly, but this is what I mean for when I am picking the best side) why would you unnecessarily risk it? What if one of your specialist bowlers breaks down? You're ****ed. Not just for being a capable man down, but because now the guy who has to pick up the slack is nowhere near the requisite level.

    I'd much rather need Miller the batsman to make up the difference than Sobers the bowler. Or furthermore; I'd rather that choice be out of my hands than the fault being of my own negligible selection.

    Especially considering the dynamics of cricket. A batsman getting injured still has 10 other guys (more likely 5-6) to make the difference. If a bowler goes down you're ****ed in this scenario as the load now rests on 3 bowlers.

  9. #144
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Yes, but why would you purposely risk that anyway? What you're saying, as far as it makes sense to me, is that you're basically using Sobers/Kallis as a part-timer not a genuine all-rounder.

    You might assume you will not need it 9/10...but if this is an Earth XI vs a Mars XI and the fate of the World is on the line (silly, but this is what I mean for when I am picking the best side) why would you unnecessarily risk it? What if one of your specialist bowlers breaks down? You're ****ed. Not just for being a capable man down, but because now the guy who has to pick up the slack is nowhere near the requisite level.

    I'd much rather need Miller the batsman to make up the difference than Sobers the bowler. Or furthermore; I'd rather that choice be out of my hands than the fault being of my own negligible selection.

    Especially considering the dynamics of cricket. A batsman getting injured still has 10 other guys (more likely 5-6) to make the difference. If a bowler goes down you're ****ed in this scenario as the load now rests on 3 bowlers.
    So you're selecting to cover all of your bases in case of an injury, as opposed to what the best team make-up is?

  10. #145
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrPrez View Post
    So you're selecting to cover all of your bases in case of an injury, as opposed to what the best team make-up is?
    Why is that any different? It's one and the same. You pick the best team, to get over the toughest adversary (opposition and situation) in my opinion.

    For you the difference was slight between the difference in picking Sobers or Miller overall but sided with the batsman. But when you take into the consideration of how a match can actually play out you can see that the slight difference can make a huge impact. Why take such a real risk because of a perceived (and debatable) advantage?

    In the recent past I've selected both Imran and Miller in my team. For the reasons above, I've started to put both Warne and Murali in it too. I used to think that 2 is overkill but in reality what if you pick one spinner and, like the above scenario, he gets injured? By picking 2 all-rounders and 2 spinners I cover almost all the bases. 3 front-line pacers (more than enough) 2 spinners (way more than enough).

    Hobbs
    Hutton
    Bradman
    Richards
    Miller
    Sobers
    Gilchrist
    Imran
    Warne
    Lillee
    Murali

    I have a genuine spearhead in Lillee who, if need be, can bowl monster long spells. I have Imran and Miller who are ATG pacers and both who provide even more batting depth (as a whole, more valuable than picking 2 of Hadlee/Marshall/McGrath IMO). And I have 2 of the greatest spinners whose performances are so good they rival ATG pacers. I have a side where if nothing goes wrong (no one gets injured) can rival any other team and I also have the kind of side that can adjust to most any problem that may arise (like an injury or horrifically out of form player). That Miller batting in the top 5 may hinder the middle-order somewhat is offset by the long tail - although, compositionally it makes the most sense that he bats #5.
    Last edited by Ikki; 10-02-2013 at 01:12 PM.

  11. #146
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    What I personally belive is that optimally one should select both a batting and bowling all rounder in any team, once they do not compromise in the top six or the bowling attack. It is always a good idea to have a decent #8 batsman to shepherd the tail for a couple extra runs or help save the team on the final day of a test. Similarily no matter how good your bowling attack, there is always the need for a handy fifth bowler either to provide rest before the next new ball, be a partnership breaker or just to extend the bowling rotation. Again though, not at the expense of the batting or bowling lineups.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  12. #147
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Yes, but why would you purposely risk that anyway? What you're saying, as far as it makes sense to me, is that you're basically using Sobers/Kallis as a part-timer not a genuine all-rounder.

    You might assume you will not need it 9/10...but if this is an Earth XI vs a Mars XI and the fate of the World is on the line (silly, but this is what I mean for when I am picking the best side) why would you unnecessarily risk it? What if one of your specialist bowlers breaks down? You're ****ed. Not just for being a capable man down, but because now the guy who has to pick up the slack is nowhere near the requisite level.

    I'd much rather need Miller the batsman to make up the difference than Sobers the bowler. Or furthermore; I'd rather that choice be out of my hands than the fault being of my own negligible selection.

    Especially considering the dynamics of cricket. A batsman getting injured still has 10 other guys (more likely 5-6) to make the difference. If a bowler goes down you're ****ed in this scenario as the load now rests on 3 bowlers.
    Is an All Time XI supposed to be an honour/ reward for the best test players (careers) or as Ikki says the team we would play againts Mars for the sake of the Earth. If it's the latter then I would go with.

    Len Hutton
    Barry Richards ^
    Don Bradman *
    Viv Richards ^
    Sachin Tendulkar/ Greg Chappell/ Brian Lara/ George Headley
    Garry Sobers ^
    Adam Gilchrist +
    Mike Procter
    Malcolm Marshall
    Shane Warne
    Glen Mcgrath/ Dennis Lillee

    All about balance, Hutton to be the anchor, batting depth with match winners in the middle order, best batting all rounder, attacking and metronomic bolwers, pace and accuratcy and an amazing cordon and outfield. Besides myself and Jager not many others place an emphasis on the cordon, but bowlers like Marshall, Lillee and Mcgrath depended heavily on their cordons for wickets, as well as Warne and it must be a factor for me when choosing such sides.
    Last edited by kyear2; 10-02-2013 at 02:14 PM.

  13. #148
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I generally pick a straightforward team in an ATG discussion:

    Hobbs
    Sutcliffe/Gavaskar/Hutton
    Bradman
    Tendulkar/Chappell/Lara/Hammond
    V. Richards
    Sobers
    Knott/ Gilchrist
    Hadlee
    Marshall
    Warne
    Lillee


    However, if I wanted to play two spinners, I think I'd have to include Miller:

    Hobbs
    Sutcliffe/Gavaskar/Hutton
    Bradman
    V. Richards
    Miller
    Sobers
    Knott/Gilchrist
    Marshall
    Warne
    Lillee
    Murali


    Imran is the other option, but I think Miller was a better batsman than Imran.
    Just to carry on the Earth V Mars theme......

    It's 1-1 heading into the 5th Test and Earth has to win the final Test against Mars otherwise Earth the planet gets obliterated by a massive Ray Gun. The Mars groundsman has prepared a flat track to favour his team (just like the Indian ones generally do at Mumbai or where-ever).

    Therefore: Earth is going to need the X-factor of Miller in the team because his inclusion gives the team greater bowling variety and depth. A batting centric team won't do in a 'must-win situation'. The second option it is to save us all from doom.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - David Gower - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Monty Noble - Don Tallon - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  14. #149
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Just to carry on the Earth V Mars theme......

    It's 1-1 heading into the 5th Test and Earth has to win the final Test against Mars otherwise Earth the planet gets obliterated by a massive Ray Gun. The Mars groundsman has prepared a flat track to favour his team (just like the Indian ones generally do at Mumbai or where-ever).
    In that case you need Jardine as skipper and a pace attack of Larwood, Thommo, Roy Gilchrist and Sylvers

  15. #150
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Will Gilchrist will at least hurt some of them with some well placed beamers.

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