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Thread: Early era batsmen

  1. #16
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    No one has seen him play and there is no footage so why should I rate him? And if you say because he was better than his competition, then wasn't he the only one to actually take his cricket seriously as compared to everyone else and he was also a cheat.
    It's probably as well that you haven't seen the bit of footage that there is

    I normally relish the chance to try and convince non-believers of the eminence of WG, but on this occasion I think I'll pass given those rather odd pre-conceptions you have there

  2. #17
    International Coach Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    What odd pre-conceptions? Everyone was an amateur and there were no professionals back then. And isn't he known for being a cheat?

  3. #18
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    What odd pre-conceptions? Everyone was an amateur and there were no professionals back then. And isn't he known for being a cheat?
    The first Gents v Players match was more than forty years before WG was even born, and WG wasn't really a cheat - he tried it on, and he took his cricket as seriously as any professional (because in most ways that matter that's what he was), but he was no Malik/Azhar/Cronje/Butt

  4. #19
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    No one has seen him play and there is no footage so why should I rate him? And if you say because he was better than his competition, then wasn't he the only one to actually take his cricket seriously as compared to everyone else and he was also a cheat.
    This
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3


  5. #20
    International Coach Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    The first Gents v Players match was more than forty years before WG was even born, and WG wasn't really a cheat - he tried it on, and he took his cricket as seriously as any professional (because in most ways that matter that's what he was), but he was no Malik/Azhar/Cronje/Butt
    Of course match fixers are worse but they under perform deliberately, whereas guys who refuse to walk off improve their averages and thus are seen as being better than what they were.

    Now I would be willing to consider Grace as being rated equally to a good 40-45 averaging batsman today (if you convince me), but I wouldn't rate him being equal to say a Tendulkar or a Lara.

  6. #21
    International Coach Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Could you post some footage?

  7. #22
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    Could you post some footage?
    I'm afraid I can't find it by googling it, though I suspect it must be out there - its not rare - its just a few frames of WG and Ranji in the nets at Lord's - he was very much at the veteran stage by then

  8. #23
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    I'm afraid I can't find it by googling it, though I suspect it must be out there - its not rare - its just a few frames of WG and Ranji in the nets at Lord's - he was very much at the veteran stage by then
    Here it is.

  9. #24
    International Coach Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Ranji isn't even wearing pads, some real pace bowling there. Would like to imagine how they would have gone against the likes of Marshall, Lillee, Waqar, Steyn, etc.

  10. #25
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Did anyone notice that people were sitting directly behind Grace and Ranji while they were batting with no netting or barrier inbetween? They must have had complete faith in the batsman hitting the ball, or perhaps they didn't mind getting hit because the bowling wasn't very fast. Grace was wearing pads though.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  11. #26
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    Ranji isn't even wearing pads, some real pace bowling there. Would like to imagine how they would have gone against the likes of Marshall, Lillee, Waqar, Steyn, etc.
    Initially, I would get guess pretty bad. Thrust into a Test match at Lords in 1984 with Marshall at the top of his run they would be lucky to make double figures.

    However, after 3 months of practice on modern pitches with modern equipment against modern fast bowlers I would postulate that they would fair much better than your average Test batsman.

    After all, Grace andf Ranji are called greats for very good reasons: - superb hand to eye co-ordination, leaders in innovation and technique, determined and iron-clad temperment, and so forth.

    (Incidently, this highlights a 'problem' when choosing Grace or Ranji during an ATG Draft. Do we assume that they be will playing in a hypothetical Test match against modern fast bowlers without any practice or preparation against modern fast bowlers, or assume that they would be playing a modern domestic season before taking part in their first hypothetical Test match? I've always assumed the former so tend not to select pre-WWI batsman)
    Last edited by watson; 26-01-2013 at 04:05 PM.

  12. #27
    International Coach Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    How do you know that they had superb hand eye coordination?

    The hand eye coordination needed to face the likes of fast bowlers today doesn't just come within a matter of 3 months. And if they did have the superb hand eye coordination you are talking about then their averages would have been better.

  13. #28
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    I'd back myself to do better on a 2013 Year 10 Astronomy exam than Galileo; doesn't mean I'm a better astronomer than him. (Pretty sure I've ripped that comparison off from another member here ftr, apologies for not remembering who).

    I'm sure cricket has improved vastly in standard overall since 1910; in fact I think people would be surprised to see an overall rise in quality since the 70s for example, judging by the hard evidence that exists in other sports to prove increased athleticism and refinement of skills over time.

    I just think trying to judge sportsmen in absolute terms like that is completely absurd, not to mention pretty much impossible objectively when it comes to cricket. The only valuable - not to mention possible - way to compare players across eras is to first compare them to their peers and then compare the results of those comparisons.
    Last edited by Prince EWS; 26-01-2013 at 04:12 PM.
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  14. #29
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    Ranji isn't even wearing pads, some real pace bowling there. Would like to imagine how they would have gone against the likes of Marshall, Lillee, Waqar, Steyn, etc.
    How would they have gone against trebuchets?
    Last edited by Howe_zat; 26-01-2013 at 04:14 PM.
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  15. #30
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    I'd back myself to do better on a 2013 Year 10 Astronomy exam than Galileo; doesn't mean I'm a better astronomer than him. (Pretty sure I've ripped that comparison off from another member here ftr, apologies for not remembering who).

    I'm sure cricket has improved vastly in standard overall since 1910; in fact I think people would be surprised to see an overall rise in quality since the 70s for example, judging by the hard evidence that exists in other sports to prove increased athleticism and refinement of skills over time.

    I just think trying to judge sportsmen in absolute terms like that is completely absurd, not to mention pretty much impossible objectively when it comes to cricket. The only valuable - not to mention possible - way to compare players across eras is to first compare them to their peers and then compare the results of those comparisons.
    What about ATG Drafts though? In a hypothetical Test match made up of players from many different decades you have to make some kind of assumption of how Grace would go against Malcolm Marshall in a 'real live' scenario because that's who Grace would be facing-up to in 'reality'. That's the whole point of the exercise!

    In other words, you can't hind behind the statement 'Grace was the greatest batsman of his time relative to his peers' because it's an All-Time-Great Draft. Grace 'will be' facing Marshall at his 1984 peak whether you like it or not.

    And Galileo 'will be' taking that 2013 astronomy exam to turn your point on its head.
    Last edited by watson; 26-01-2013 at 04:40 PM.

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