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Thread: ***Official*** England in New Zealand series 2013

  1. #7546
    U19 Debutant jcas0167's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    I.

    I also agree that we need someone a bit different in the 3rd seamers role. Wagner did well in this series, but he's not a natural 3rd seamer and very few of his wickets were down to anything other than batsman error. A bounce or pace bowler would be ideal. Milne hasn't played enough this season to merit a callup, but maybe Butler has earnt a go. He's actually done quite a bit of his bowling for Otago this season as first change, which should prepare him well for performing the role for the national side.

    Squad for the return tour (assuming Vettori isn't fit)

    Playing XI
    +
    Guptill
    Bracewell
    Butler
    Ronchi

    Ronchi can serve as both a replacement number 6 if Brownlie or McCullum get injured, as well as a replacement wk if Watling is injured. I don't like including Guptill, but I don't think Raval has done quite enough yet to warrant a test callup, and in spite of his recent performances, I still rate Guppy slightly higher than Redmond.
    Is Kyle Mills still in consideration for the 3rd seamers role? He got a 10 wicket bag in a Plunket Shield game and imagine the English conditions might suit him?

    Guptill's fielding is so good I'd almost bring him in for Brownlie in the starting XI (provided he gets some runs in the lead up games).

  2. #7547
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    There is no way in hell Brownlie should be dropped.

    He had a so so series, but only one batsman in this line up has a hundred to his name against Steyn/Philander/Morkel in favourable bowling conditions when his team was under the pump.

    Guptill has spent the entire summer looking and being gash. I would include him in the tour party so we can name him 12th man and abuse the sub fielder rule though.

    As much as I love Mills, he isn't the best candidate for being the third seamer and without writing a list probably barely slips inside the top ten FC quicks in the country.

    I'll try it just to see (and in no particular order because I cbf):

    Boult
    Southee
    Bracewell
    Wagner
    Milne
    Wheeler
    Henry
    Butler
    Gillespie
    Bennett/Arnel/Mills/Martin
    Last edited by Flem274*; 26-03-2013 at 04:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jeets doesn't really deserve to be bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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  3. #7548
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcas0167 View Post
    Is Kyle Mills still in consideration for the 3rd seamers role? He got a 10 wicket bag in a Plunket Shield game and imagine the English conditions might suit him?

    Guptill's fielding is so good I'd almost bring him in for Brownlie in the starting XI (provided he gets some runs in the lead up games).
    Harsh to drop Brownlie for a couple of dropped catches (as crucial as they ultimately turned out to be). It's a lot easier to improve your catching than it is to improve your batting.
    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    I can think of a list of Sydney Grade posters who would contribute a better average post than Bahnz.
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  4. #7549
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Would say the batting ability/pecking order (bit of a mix) atm should be:

    Taylor
    McCullum
    Williamson
    Fulton
    Watling
    Brownlie
    Rutherford
    Ryder
    Ronchi/Flynn
    Guptill (as opener only does he deserve to be here)

    Those are the best batsmen in the country. There are a few guys who will probably get in that list next domestic season but atm they're about 12 months off. Latham, Young, Mitchell, ten million Cachopa's etc maybe Redmond makes the list of trustworthy batsmen as well.


  5. #7550
    International Vice-Captain Mike5181's Avatar
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    1. Hamish Rutherford
    2. Peter Fulton
    3. Kane Williamson
    4. Ross Taylor
    5. Dean Brownlie
    6. Brendon McCullum
    7. BJ Watling+
    8. Tim Southee
    9. Bruce Martin
    10. Neil Wagner
    11. Trent Boult

    12. Doug Bracewell
    13. Ian Butler
    14. Jesse Ryder, Luke Ronchi (If Ryder's not available)
    15. Martin Guptill

  6. #7551
    International Captain straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    I also agree that we need someone a bit different in the 3rd seamers role. Wagner did well in this series, but he's not a natural 3rd seamer and very few of his wickets were down to anything other than batsman error. A bounce or pace bowler would be ideal. Milne hasn't played enough this season to merit a callup, but maybe Butler has earnt a go. He's actually done quite a bit of his bowling for Otago this season as first change, which should prepare him well for performing the role for the national side.

    Squad for the return tour (assuming Vettori isn't fit)

    Playing XI
    +
    Guptill
    Bracewell
    Butler
    Ronchi

    Ronchi can serve as both a replacement number 6 if Brownlie or McCullum get injured, as well as a replacement wk if Watling is injured. I don't like including Guptill, but I don't think Raval has done quite enough yet to warrant a test callup, and in spite of his recent performances, I still rate Guppy slightly higher than Redmond.
    McClenaghan vs Butler for that second reserve seamer spot is a difficult one. Early season in England means green seam but not warm enough to swing? Or does the Duke swing even if it's colder? I guess green seam would favour Butler just a little. However I would lean towards McClenaghan.

    Wagner did ok but is destined to fly all over the world for the next few years as a reserve imo. Bracewell needs to get back ahead of him by outbowling him in the England warmup matches. Longer term there are about eight potential options for that third seamer spot and it's only a matter of time before one really puts his hand up and claims it.

    To me Southee still has the higher performance ceiling than Boult due to slight physical advantages (though Boult looks stronger now than I ever expected him to be a few years ago). However Boult looks determined as **** and mentality counts for a lot - think of the world's top fast bowlers past and present and they're nearly all obsessive or ultra-competitive or unusual personalities or all of those - not saying Boult is that but to me he has the edge over the more laid-back Southee, and perhaps it's as impossible to change that as it is to change someone's physical build.

  7. #7552
    U19 Debutant jcas0167's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    There is no way in hell Brownlie should be dropped.

    He had a so so series, but only one batsman in this line up has a hundred to his name against Steyn/Philander/Morkel in favourable bowling conditions when his team was under the pump.

    Guptill has spent the entire summer looking and being gash. I would include him in the tour party so we can name him 12th man and abuse the sub fielder rule though.

    As much as I love Mills, he isn't the best candidate for being the third seamer and without writing a list probably barely slips inside the top ten FC quicks in the country.
    I agree Brownlie has done enough to retain the no5 spot. I was particularly impressed with his batting when he came in when NZ were about 8/3.

    ***Guptill (as opener only does he deserve to be here)***

    I quite like the idea of him coming in down the order and playing his shots as he did in that first ODI. Like Astle he's such a clean striker down the ground, but would need to improve against spin. I'd have him ahead of Ronchi, Ryder & Flynn for a middle order test spot.

  8. #7553
    U19 Debutant jcas0167's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    McClenaghan vs Butler for that second reserve seamer spot is a difficult one. Early season in England means green seam but not warm enough to swing? Or does the Duke swing even if it's colder? I guess green seam would favour Butler just a little. However I would lean towards McClenaghan..
    Geoff Allott got a lot of swing with the Duke ball in the 1999 WC, which was held around May/early June?

  9. #7554
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Would it be biased of me to suggest that now Adam Milne has developed an outswinger he has the highest ceiling of any bowler in the country? As he grows older his body will get stronger as well.

    Anyway, while I love looking around the traps and seeing stacked bowling line ups in every single side, realistically at least half of the ND and CD stocks alone will probably be perma injured and while I hope Bennett's new action helps him he's had years of long term injuries so he's another who I think won't quite make it. Anderson's bowling another. However as long as the national side has two or three good reserves we should be okay.

    Also while we have some okay young batsmen, and while Peter Fulton proves (as O'Brien did for bowlers) that FC journeyman batsmen can do a job in the right circumstances at test level, I don't see another Williamson, Taylor or Ryder in the under 25 age groups (except of course, for KW himself) and that is a bit concerning.

    edit: @ Straw Man: Southee does get pretty fired up at times. I'd say he's angrier than Boult. Will still be a very good bowler if all goes well.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 26-03-2013 at 05:17 PM.

  10. #7555
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Ryder for Brownlie and Milne/Bracewell for Wagner and it's our perfect team right now IMO.

    I suppose a case could be made for Ronchi but I don't mind investing in Watling.

  11. #7556
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcas0167 View Post
    I agree Brownlie has done enough to retain the no5 spot. I was particularly impressed with his batting when he came in when NZ were about 8/3.

    ***Guptill (as opener only does he deserve to be here)***

    I quite like the idea of him coming in down the order and playing his shots as he did in that first ODI. Like Astle he's such a clean striker down the ground, but would need to improve against spin. I'd have him ahead of Ronchi, Ryder & Flynn for a middle order test spot.
    I disagree. I think he could do it if we are desperate, but I'd take all three of the batsmen you named ahead of Guptill in the middle order. Flynn probably edges him for the openers spot as well.

  12. #7557
    State 12th Man Immenso's Avatar
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    I am pleased for Neil Wagner. But I personally still rate him as currently NZs 5th best pace bowler, behind Bracewell and Gillespie.

    And to be challenged over next 12 months by McClenaghan, who while also left armer, provides variety with height/bounce, pace/heavy ball, and gets much closer to stumps at delivery.

    It's pretty amazing to me that Wagner has now played more tests(6), to Gillespie's 5.
    Gillespie, like Adams, will have people scratching their heads in 20 years time wondering why he didn't play more tests.

    I hope Bracewell has a good tour during those FC matches and regains that spot.

  13. #7558
    U19 Debutant jcas0167's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    .
    Also while we have some okay young batsmen, and while Peter Fulton proves (as O'Brien did for bowlers) that FC journeyman batsmen can do a job in the right circumstances at test level, I don't see another Williamson, Taylor or Ryder in the under 25 age groups (except of course, for KW himself) and that is a bit concerning.

    edit: @ Straw Man: Southee does get pretty fired up at times. I'd say he's angrier than Boult. Will still be a very good bowler if all goes well.
    I think it will be interesting to see how the under 19's go in the series against Australia (starting in a few days?). Seifert seems to be a standout.

    I think Southee is more temperamental than Boult. More openly combative with his words with the batsmen. Boult seems quietly determined and poker faced.

  14. #7559
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Would it be biased of me to suggest that now Adam Milne has developed an outswinger he has the highest ceiling of any bowler in the country? As he grows older his body will get stronger too.
    Think it's way too early to even guess how good Milne could be. Can he sustain his swing while bowling at full pace? Can he consistently hit a good length at speed? We just don't know yet. I'd want to see him play a full season of domestic cricket before being asked to guess how good he could be.

  15. #7560
    International Captain straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Also while we have some okay young batsmen, and while Peter Fulton proves (as O'Brien did for bowlers) that FC journeyman batsmen can do a job in the right circumstances at test level.
    Haha, I had this thought last night that Fulton should have come out after scoring all these runs and said "this is for all the domestic journeymen*, for all the guys that keep playing when their New Zealand ambitions have been thwarted, when they haven't quite managed to step up, this is for Matthew Bell who was recalled in 2008 and scored three ducks and averaged under 20, it's for Peter Ingram who was reluctantly given two tests after piling on the domestic runs and then dropped as soon as possible, for Craig Cumming and Michael Papps and Tim McIntosh and especially for Matthew Sinclair. I did it.".

    Emotional

    * unfair really to describe Fulton as a journeyman - he's only fitted that label in the last few years - for many years before that he was more a talented batsman that hadn't achieved as much as he might have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    edit: @ Straw Man: Southee does get pretty fired up at times. I'd say he's angrier than Boult. Will still be a very good bowler if all goes well.
    Not talking about being angry - talking about determination to be the best possible, which means a tremendous amount of work off the park and an all-consuming single focus. I'm not questioning Southee's dedication, just saying I get the feeling Boult really wants it. And I think he's quite smart too - thinks a lot about how to get batsmen out.



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