Ranking Nations in terms of producing Batsmen and Bowlers

[wellAlbidarned]

@SJS RE wrist spin in the game's early days

I've read that in the days of underarm and side-arm bowling leg-spin was actually one of the more common styles, and then faded with the development of overarm. Seems like you're implying the opposite

[SJS]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

SJS, which world class finger spinner did you include from South Africa in the 90s/00s??

Faulkner, not finger spinner - leg spinner.

[NUFAN]

Your earlier post, post 23 has a South African spinner from the 1990's - 2000's. I'm asking about the finger spinner discussion, not the leg spin.

[SJS]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

Your earlier post, post 23 has a South African spinner from the 1990's - 2000's. I'm asking about the finger spinner discussion, not the leg spin.

There are two finger spinners from South Africa,
CJ Vincent (1927-1935) - 84 wickets at 31.32 in 25 Tests
and
Hugh Tayfield (1949-1960) - 170 wickets at 25.9 in 37 Tests

I think I may have put the wrong era by mistake. There is no finger spinner in the last era but a wrist spinner in Paul Adams (although many consider him a finger spinner just as many consider Murali a wrist spinner)

[SJS]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

Yeah the reason why I asked was I couldn't think of anyone that would fit the criteria and after looking at the stats page Paul Harris is the closest to making the cut, but his average is over 35 so he doesn't make it.

Overall with what SJS has done, I've enjoyed his written article but find the figures misleading and not the best way of addressing the question. The criteria rewards average cricketers who played lots of matches.

Well I can put all the bowlers from all the countries and you will find all kind of bowlers everywhere. Every country has 4-5 bowlers per test so they will have bowlers as well as batsmen.

This thread was to see which countries produced better batsmen, which produced better fast bowlers and so on. So a criteria had to be made to decide who was 'better'. The criteria for wickets per test allied with minimum average does that. The criteria for minimum number of wickets does not leave out those one would consider a MUSt in this list barring the odd figure.

Just for your information, here are the bowlers with 50-74 wickets that got left out. I think it is fair to say that a majority of them are not of a caliber that would enable their country to be become listed as a great bowling side (even in the specific discipline) just by their inclusion.

1. W Bates
2. EP Nupen
3. BD Julien
4. G Ulyett
5. KD Mackay
6. Shabbir Ahmed
7. JJC Lawson
8. Mohammad Amir
9. SJ Benn
10. NG Cowans
11. RS Cunis
12. W Barnes
13. DAJ Holford
14. GJ Whittall
15. Wasim Raja
16. NJ Astle
17. NGB Cook
18. CR Matthews
19. JS Patel
20. C Kelleway
21. Nasim-ul-Ghani
22. CG Borde
23. FA Rose
24. SB O'Connor
25. RD King
26. AM Blignaut
27. KJ O'Keeffe
28. RJ Bright
29. Asif Iqbal
30. Khan Mohammad
31. GJ Gilmour
32. AMB Rowan
33. M Hayward
34. UWMBCA Welegedara
35. Aaqib Javed
36. GC Small
37. RO Schwarz
38. TW Wall
39. JR Ratnayeke
40. BC Strang
41. R Gilchrist
42. TT Bresnan
43. PS Heine
44. R Tattersall
45. LN Constantine
46. NBF Mann
47. AD Mullally
48. AJ Bichel
49. KR Pushpakumara
50. MC Snedden
51. AB Agarkar
52. GE Gomez
53. ALF de Mel
54. SP Jones
55. Pervez Sajjad
56. GH Hirst
57. C White
58. BE Congdon
59. ME Waugh
60. DW Headley
61. K Farnes
62. JM Blanckenberg
63. KD Boyce
64. JDP Oram
65. G Miller
66. NM Lyon
67. WKM Benjamin
68. C Sharma
69. PJ Wiseman
70. GRJ Matthews
71. BAW Mendis
72. FJ Cameron
73. DG Phadkar
74. SR Watson
75. R Ashwin
76. NM Hauritz
77. Azeem Hafeez
78. JH Sinclair
79. LS Pascoe
80. AEE Vogler
81. RWV Robins
82. E Jones
83. DNT Zoysa
84. WJ Whitty
85. TG Southee
86. AP Freeman
87. ND Hirwani
88. JD Higgs
89. ER Dexter
90. Mudassar Nazar
91. PI Pocock
92. Sikander Bakht
93. WE Bowes
94. Ghulam Ahmed
95. Mahmood Hussain
96. HK Olonga
97. CR Miller
98. HDPK Dharmasena
99. Shahadat Hossain
100. FMM Worrell
101. ST Finn
102. PA Strang
103. AR MacGibbon
104. BR Knight
105. DR Pringle
106. K Higgs
107. DR Hadlee
108. S Madan Lal
109. RB Simpson
110. CH Gayle
111. JK Lever
112. IE O'Brien
113. RJ Ratnayake
114. VD Philander
115. H Ironmonger
116. RB Desai
117. SL Boock

Of course they are bowlers of some merit, after all they have 50 plus Test wickets but they are not the bowlers (except the odd exception) that one would use as an example of a country's bowling prowess in the history of cricket.

[smalishah84]

The number 8 in that list, what a waste of talent

[sledger]

WI just don't have the know how so far as bringing through good players imo. Just got lucky in the past with a lot of natural talent coming along at once.

See also: Australia mid 90s - 2009

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Slifer

I honestly dont get the jist of this post. If u mean WI arent one or two in producing top batsmen and bowlers now then u have a point but if u mean in crickets history then WI are easily top 3 in both quality batsmen/fast bowlers produced (esp when measured against tests played)

Long term wise no they are not. They produced mostly mediocre players in their early years and does so right now. They had good/great middle years but that's exactly my point.

And tests played is not a wise argument as even players they produced in the 70's and 80's play significantly less tests than players of today. FC games were the thing back then too but to a lesser extent than say the Hobbs era. And there are guys like Geroge Headly whom a lot of people consider an ATG from those days who hardly played that many test or FC games.

[kyear2]

To be honest only South Africa and Australia has been able to consistenly produce batting and bowling talent the past couple decades.
England has done a magnificant job of importing talent though. They have also done their fair share of not helping in the development of W.I talent by restrictions of overseas players in county cricket.

[sledger]

Yeah, the fact that the West Indies are incapable of producing anyone half decent is clearly the fault of the ECB. Talk about passing the buck ffs.

[Slifer]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Long term wise no they are not. They produced mostly mediocre players in their early years and does so right now. They had good/great middle years but that's exactly my point.

And tests played is not a wise argument as even players they produced in the 70's and 80's play significantly less tests than players of today. FC games were the thing back then too but to a lesser extent than say the Hobbs era. And there are guys like Geroge Headly whom a lot of people consider an ATG from those days who hardly played that many test or FC games.

Bro WI have always managed to produce world beaters regardless of era 30s : Headley, Martindale, Learie Constatine, H Griffith 50s: 3 Ws, Valentine, Ramadhin 60s: Sobers, Nurse, Butcher, Hall, Griffith, Kanhai, O G Smith (may he RIP)Gibbs, 70s : Viv, Lloyd, Fredricks, Roberts Holding, Kalli, Garner, 80s MM, Richardson, Walsh, Dujon, 90s Lara, Ambrose, Bishop, Chanders. I could go on and on. WI. 2000 left to be seen but the likes of D Bravo and K Roach look very promising.

I suggest u read up on WI and cricket history b4 u start running ur mouth about things u dont know. WI were new on the scene early on and like ne team it took a while for them to find their feet but apart from Pakistan WI took to test cricket much better than most new comers. And as for WI players playing less FC back in the day being a 'colored' team in a world who considered u less than equals didnt afford many West indians the opportunity to play abroad heck one team in particular (RSA) down right refused to play the WI.

[GingerFurball]

Originally Posted by SJS

Hence the American-African community produces sprinters after world beating sprinters while those whose ancesters were not considered strobg enough to be taken on those terrible ships, produce long distance runners.

Not strictly true. West Africans are genetically more predisposed to being able to sprint, East Africans are more genetically predisposed to distance running. Those in the US and Carribean whose ancestors were sold into slavery would have, for reasons of geography, been from West Africa.

[kyear2]

Never said solely the fault, so many places to lay the blame. A through grass roots program and propper trasitional cocahing for juniors after they leave school would be a great start, but also showing that it can be a viable high earning career possibility would help.
It's also caused partially by a cultural shift to some of the more potentially profitable and popular sports which has replaced cricket for some of the younger generation.

[Daemon]

I blame the USA

[wellAlbidarned]

wellAlbidarned half-baked theory #97
Are so many of WI's fast bowlers these days fairly short because all the tall athletically inclined guys go for Basketball?