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Thread: India ATG Team- Open Voting

  1. #166
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    VVS Laxman at 6.
    Bishen Singh Bedi at 11.

    Would have picked Mohammed Nissar at 11 if Bedi was already on the team.
    Last edited by Sarun; 09-01-2013 at 11:02 AM.

  2. #167
    International Captain The Sean's Avatar
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    Mankad
    Bedi
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    C'mon Man U.
    RIP Craigos

  3. #168
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    can I give both my votes to Bedi?

    Otherwise I'll take:
    Bedi
    Mankad...or maybe Ganguly because he can also bowl a bit.

  4. #169
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Newsflash: The votes for Prasanna and Bedi are now tied!

    Prasanna = 5
    Bedi = 5
    Chandra = 4
    Gupte = 1
    Nissar = 1
    Amar Singh = 1
    Laxman = 1
    Mankad = numerous

    Will keep the voting going for the rest of the day as this is very close.

    Prasanna obviously gives the attack more variety, but Bedi and Chandra remain co-favourites none-the-less.

    Incidently, the team is currently as follows with Mankad due to take the No.6 spot because of a million votes in this round;

    01. Sunil Gavaskar
    02. Vijay Merchant
    03. Rahul Dravid
    04. Sachin Tendulkar
    05. Vijay Hazare
    06.
    07. Farokh Engineer
    08. Kapil Dev
    09. Anil Kumble
    10. Javagal Srinath
    11.

    Please cast your vote if you haven't yet had a go.
    Last edited by watson; 09-01-2013 at 04:57 PM.
    PRE WWI
    Grace-Trumper-Hill-Taylor-Ranjitsinhji-Faulkner-Noble-Lilley-Turner-Richardson-Barnes
    PRE WWII
    Hobbs-Sutcliffe-Bradman-Hammond-Headley-Macartney-Ames-Gregory-Larwood-O'Reilly-Grimmett
    POST WWII
    Hutton-Simpson-Kanhai-Pollock-Harvey-Sobers-Waite-Benaud-Davidson-Lindwall-Trueman
    PACKER ERA
    Gavaskar-Greenidge-Richards-Chappell-Lloyd-Botham-Imran-Knott-Lillee-Holding-Underwood
    MODERN ERA
    Hayden-Langer-Ponting-Tendulkar-Lara-Kallis-Gilchrist-Marshall-Warne-Ambrose-McGrath


  5. #170
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    With Mankad in the team don't see the need for two LH spinners, especially with a leg spinner already selected.
    1st XI
    Hutton | Hobbs | Bradman* | Richards^ | Tendulkar | Sobers5^ | Gilchrist+ | Khan3 | Marshall1 | Warne4^ | McGrath2
    2nd XI
    Sutcliffe | Gavaskar* | Headley | Chappell^ | Lara^ | Kallis5^ | Knott+ | Hadlee3 | Ambrose2 | Lillee1 | Muralitharan4
    3rd XI
    Greenidge | Richards^ | Ponting^ | Pollock | Hammond^ | Worrell5* | Waite+ | Akram3 | Steyn1 | Holding2 | O'Reilly4
    4th XI
    Morris | Simpson^ | Sangakkara | Weekes^ | Border*^ | Walcott+ | Faulkner5 | Laker4 | Trueman1 | Garner3 | Donald2

  6. #171
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    With Mankad in the team don't see the need for two LH spinners, especially with a leg spinner already selected.
    I agree. Two of them is a luxury. Plus they both take the ball away from the right hander (and in to the left hander). It would be better to have a bowler to take the ball away from the left hander so a an off spinner and a left armer makes more sense not least because Prasanna was the biggest spinner of them all. Until Murali came on the scene, one had not seen a finger spinner make the ball turn as much as he did - and even on the flattest of decks. It is a fact, that Prasanna could get tuen out of every conceivable surface, just as Murali could. On top of that was the bounce he extracted which though mentioned, isn't explained by Bailey,

    Prasanna, like Murali, threw the viciously spinning ball up in the air and this combination of the height (maximum height in the flight curve) from which the ball came down and the grip it got from the surface with the vicious turn that made it sit up. This is a different bounce than the taller spinners like Kumble get, Then with variations in flight and spin they, both Murali and Prasanna, could also vary the amount of bounce off the deck, making the precise point of contact between bat and ball so very difficult for the batsman to decide upon. Misjudging the line and/or lateral movement makes the ball hit the edges (or miss altogether) instead of the middle and misjudging the bounce and/or length makes him hit it in the air. That is why bowlers like Murali and Prasanna present bigger head aches to batsmen.

    I have always struggled to choose the spinners for an all time Indian side. Gupte, Mankad, Prasanna, Chandra, Bedi and Kumble present an embarrassment of riches. It is like choosing between Wes Hall, Andy Roberts, Mike Holding and Malcolm Marshall for Windies. Going for our favourites/heroes makes it easier but not necessarily the correct and considered choice. The younger lot never leaves out Marshall and the older will often have Wes Hall in the mix. Its the same if asked to choose a pace attack from Spofforth, Lindwall, Miller, Lillee, MacGrath (Miller being the Mankad in that mix ). Those who would choose Spofforth are all dead or dying while MacGrath's fans are alive, kicking and very excited about his exploits. This is always going to be the case. That is why the need to take a step back, try to be objective and, at the end of the day, carry those proverbial dollops of salt.

    Bedser, in selecting te Post war sides for all the test playing countries says something very important.

    . . . the art of selecting teams may be compared to umpiring - the best make the fewer mistakes. A selector needs judgment and experience, and a thing called luck.


    So coming back to the choice of an Indian attack what I do is this. I decide whether I want a balanced attack or a spin attack plus Kapil. Mostly, when in a serious mood, I choose the latter, Which means I have an attack that is headed by either Kapil and Nissar or Kapil and Amar Singh. Sometimes, to make the audience happy I have gone with Kapil and Srinath too - kidding.

    I like the idea of having five bowlers (including the all rounder/s) so that leaves me with three spinners to choose from Gupte, Prasanna, Chandrashekhar, Bedi, Kumble and the all rounder Mankad.

    The choice of Mankad depends on the balance of the side. If I had Kapil and Amar Singh to open the attack (you have not considered this awesome bowler and very gifted all rounder which is unfair in my humble opinion) and if my wicket keeper is a good batsman as well (I will never choose Dhoni for he is a bad keeper - period) then I might not consider Mankad unless I want him to open the batting. So this is a bit of a tricky balancing act.

    Note : BTW, I think against top class bowling Engineer would fare better than Dhoni in Test matches - definitely against fast bowling which is what will get thrown at Dhoni by all ATG sides.

    If we do not want Mankad and I had to choose three specialist spinners I would unhesitatingly go with Gupte, Prasanna and Bedi. I leave out Chandra for his unpredictability and he would get murdered by the likes of Bradman and Hammond (we will play ATG sides from other countries presumably). Of course, he could deliver you both Bradman and Hammond in a trice as well. It is the choice between Doug Wright and Clarrie Grimmett for me and I choose Grimmett all though I realise Wright is under-rated and a great match winner.

    I leave out another great leggie to the shock of everyone around in Kumble. I do so because of his dependence over a long period, on domestic surfaces to really shine. I am not denying his awesome performances but this does rankle and it does with many others trust me. People don't just want to say it for it raises everyone else's hackles.

    That leaves me with three spinners that cover all conceivable variations of the spinning ball from the legbreak and brilliantly disguised googly to the vicious off spin with turn and bounce (plus the away floater) and the highly nuanced slow left arm spin with such magical control over length, pace and spin which was so subtle that the only way to know it existed was to face up to it (I was lucky enough to have played Bishan both in the nets and a few games in the DDCA league). So my three spinners are a good choice with a rider - they are all bunnies and poor fielders. The bottom half of this side would read like . . .
    1. Gavaskar
    2. Merchant/Sehwag
    3. Hazare/Dravid
    4. Tendulkar
    5. Dravid/Hazare
    6. Kapil
    7. Amar Singh
    8. Engineer
    9. Prasanna
    10. Bedi
    11. Gupte


    The batting would look worse if one removed Amar Singh and brought in Srinath. By the way, Amar Singh was one of the greatest fielders India has ever produced.

    The tail still looks long to you? Kapil at six and Amar Singh at seven with three number elevens makes you uncomfortable? What do you do.

    This is where we start making compromises - always keeping five bowlers in mind. There are many permutations and combinations.

    If one looks at a side and divides it into :-

    - Top order (1-2-3)
    - Upper middle order (4-5-6)
    - Lower middle order (7-8)
    - Tail (9-10-11)

    Generally these would consist . . .

    • The specialist bowlers and the specialist keeper - in the tail. - At least one if not two of them capable of hanging around
    • The bowling all rounder and the batsman keeper - in the lower middle order. both capable of fities and the occasional hundred.
    • The specialist batsmen and the batting all rounder - in the upper middle order - Ideally all good enough to be in the side for batting alone.
    • Only specialist batsmen on the top order.


    Of course there will be exceptions to the rule. You could have a Sobers and a Kallis in the top order and be comfortable. But Mankad or Engineer are a bit of a compromise even though both have opened in Tests with fair to good degree of success.

  7. #172
    SJS
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    With the nine already selected the choice is simple for me . . .

    • Mankad
    • Prasanna


    I don't think two left arm spinners makes sense. Not only is Mankad a world class spinner (even though Bedi is better) he is also a batsman in his own right and a very competent fielder both close in and anywhere in the outfield. This side is already compromised in fielding (irrespective of who the choice of second spinner is between Chandra, Gupte and Prasanna) and Mankad has too many credentials - not least his very astute cricketing brain. By the way, I don't have a clue as to who will lead this side. None of those chosen have been great skippers although between them they have led in a large number of Tests. Gavaskar is far too defensive, Bedi far too much of an opinionated difficult to control guy, Dravid a bit too mild to control this talented lot.

    I guess it would be a toss up between Kapil and Kumble. Not a bad team for captain and vice captain I think.

    Coming to the choice of the other spinner, I choose Prasanna for reasons I have enumerated in the earlier post. Since we should be prepared to play on all types of surfaces, I would choose him PLUS he is the only one who brings the ball in to the right handers and takes it away for the lefties.
    Last edited by SJS; 09-01-2013 at 08:38 PM.

  8. #173
    International Regular Monk's Avatar
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    It'd have to be Kapil wouldn't it? Credited with really changing the psyche of Indian cricket in the 80s.

  9. #174
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Considering Kumble wouldn't have made my team I think he ought to be captain.

    BTW the reasoning behind SJS mentioning Amar Singh was the reason why I picked him initially. I don't believe that Srinath was a better bowler and Amar was comfortably a better bat which enables the best other spinner to be picked regardless of how he bats.

  10. #175
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    My problem with Amar and Nissar are that they didn't play much, and were not outstanding when they did.
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  11. #176
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Nissar in particular provides something that no other Indian pacer can and that is unsettling pace.
    Disagree with SJS only to the perspective that with this attack one needs agressive bowlers who can take wickets and for that reason I would choose Chandra over Gupte and Kumble.
    Additionally having three rabbits at the bottom of the order is bad enough, that they also cannot field further makes the option untenable.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgieb View Post
    My problem with Amar and Nissar are that they didn't play much, and were not outstanding when they did.
    Amar was only 21 when he debuted and averaging 30 with the ball isn't too bad when you consider he was bowling to Sutcliffe, Woolley, Hammond, Jardine, Paynter, Ames etc.

    He also got a fagg as his penultimate Test wicket too, so that's something.

  13. #178
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    The fact that India won relatively few Test matches during the 60's-70s with 3 top class spinners on the field at once proves to me that a 'spinner-heavy' attack is not good enough.

    If Bedi-Chandra-Prasanna could NOT inflict regular defeats on Australia-England-West Indies at the height of their powers then they certainly won't inflict defeats when playing a hypothetical series against other ATG teams.

    The best Indian attack in my view must have 3 quicks and 2 spinners. So, having read most of the recent comments I think that the following Indian attack is most likely to be the best;

    06. Vinoo Mankad
    07.
    08. Kapil Dev
    09. Amar Singh
    10. Javagal Srinath
    11. Chandra

    It's true that both Mankad and Chandra would spin the ball back into the left handers, but I'm counting on Chandra being able to land enough top-spinners or googlies in the right spot to get rid of a batsman like Gary Sobers. Out of the 4 spinners on show I think that Chandra is the most likely to dismiss top class batsman and then crash through the batting order.

    With Dev and Singh at No.8 and No.9 respectively the tail has plenty of depth despite the fact that Chandra's tally of runs is less than his tally of wickets.
    Last edited by watson; 09-01-2013 at 11:04 PM.

  14. #179
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Anyways, it appears that SJS's recent vote for Prasanna has broken the Prasanna-Bedi deadlock and that the offie will be joining the ATG team at this point in time.
    Last edited by watson; 09-01-2013 at 11:14 PM.

  15. #180
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Considering Kumble wouldn't have made my team I think he ought to be captain.

    BTW the reasoning behind SJS mentioning Amar Singh was the reason why I picked him initially. I don't believe that Srinath was a better bowler and Amar was comfortably a better bat which enables the best other spinner to be picked regardless of how he bats.
    I agree. I think Amar Singh should be in any all time great Indian side. By all accounts he was at least as good a bowler as Nissar who, was faster of course but how many of you pick Thomson before McGrath.

    His very dashing batting and world class fielding are big bonuses.

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