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Thread: The value of Anil Kumble was underestimated

  1. #76
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    Oceania includes NZ doesn't it? Bounce is pretty slow and low there.

    His stats in Africa and WI are good.

  2. #77
    International Coach uvelocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    In Africa = 31.33

    In Americas = 31.28

    In Asia = 27.00

    In Europe = 41.41

    in Oceania = 38.20

    The above averages show that Kumble did not benefit 'mightily' from the extra bounce in Australia (Oceania).

    It seems that he was more potent when the ball kept low so he could more readily attack the stumps and go for lbws. Hence, in Asia his figures indicate a very good bowler, but outside of Asia Kumble he was little more than a middle-of-the-road bowler.
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    Yeah good from you.

  4. #79
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    I am not sure if Kumble was under-rated or his utility to the side under-estimated by those who matter viz selectors/captains etc.

    Maybe for a blip of a short period when thanks to the hype around Bhajji "The Terminator" when he was even left out of the side since they wanted to go ahead with just one spinner . . .

    Indian cricket - particularly fans and media go along heavily with hype. Thus the poster boys, controversial/hyped viz Bhajji, Yuvi, Sehwag, Zaheer, Ganguly etc have a more fanatical support than the 'nice' non- controversial kids like Kumble, Laxman and even Dravid to some extent. The only people who support the poster boys and are also in a position of influence are the sponsors for whom the stars do ads. Well Kumble and Laxman do next to none and Dravid is most famously known for being the brand ambassador of a foreign brand along with Federer and Tiger Woods.

    By and large, however, Kumble has been handled well. Same, sadly, isn't true for Laxman.


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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    Indian cricket - particularly fans and media go along heavily with hype. Thus the poster boys, controversial/hyped viz Bhajji, Yuvi, Sehwag, Zaheer, Ganguly etc have a more fanatical support than the 'nice' non- controversial kids like Kumble, Laxman and even Dravid to some extent. The only people who support the poster boys and are also in a position of influence are the sponsors for whom the stars do ads. Well Kumble and Laxman do next to none and Dravid is most famously known for being the brand ambassador of a foreign brand along with Federer and Tiger Woods.
    Did Dravid do the Gilette ads in India? Surprised they didn't go all the way and get Sachin.

    And in any case, Dravid's most famous for being the ambassador for Indian fans of the Richmond Football Club:


  6. #81
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  7. #82
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    Yea, some stats for watson

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    Did well for a spinner in Australia and South Africa, having a strike rate of 65 in Oz, and a good economy rate (2.26) in South Africa. Not brilliant in either, but was decent for a spinner in unhelpful conditions. Reliable.

    His worse stats come in countries with slow and low tracks - Sri Lanka, New Zealand, and a good economy but poor SR in England.

    I'm not sure how many of the pitches in WI during his time were quick and bouncy, or the slow turners that they are now, so hard to look into those stats unless I go through every Test he played in the WI and read the reports regarding the pitch.

    But overall, this shows the point that Kumble like bounce, and when conditions didn't suit him, he could atleast be relied on to control an end, whereas if he got both bounce and spin (IE, in India) or bashing minnows (Zim and BD) he was pretty fantastic. Delivered when he was expected to, and was reliable when things weren't in his favour.

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    Australia is a good place to bowl leg spin itbt. Bad place to bowl finger spin, but helpful for leggies.

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    hows denmark for bowling spin, i'd be concerned about in ODI's losing the white ball in the tundra

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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    In Africa = 31.33

    In Americas = 31.28

    In Asia = 27.00

    In Europe = 41.41

    in Oceania = 38.20

    The above averages show that Kumble did not benefit 'mightily' from the extra bounce in Australia (Oceania).

    It seems that he was more potent when the ball kept low so he could more readily attack the stumps and go for lbws. Hence, in Asia his figures indicate a very good bowler, but outside of Asia Kumble he was little more than a middle-of-the-road bowler.
    Kumble's success in different conditions makes more interesting reading when one goes into greater detail than that. His performances can be divided into three clusters of countries

    1. At home in India
    2. In Australia, Pakistan and West Indies and
    3. In England, New Zealand, South Africa and Sri Lanka

    I have left out the minnows for obvious reasons.

    Here are his stats in these three clusters
    Code:
    Cluster.   Tests   Wkts     Avg.   Eco Rt.    St Rt.    W/I.     5 for.   10for
    
    India.     63      350.     24.9    2.51.     59.       3.04     25        7
    
    P-A-W      27      118.     36.2.    3.3.     66.       2.62     8         1
    
    E-N-S-S.   34      62.      38.6.   2.60.     89.       1.97     2         0
    Not surprisingly, the figures at home are the best in every respect. However it is the comparison between the other two clusters that tells a tale .

    The difference in averages between the two clusters tells little but that does not mean Kumble found no difference in bowling in different conditions. It is just that he adjusted his bowling to maximise the impact on conditions that suited him and minimise the negative impact of those that did not.

    Look at the last four columns. He clearly relished bowling in the first cluster viz Australia, Windies and Pakistan compared to England, SAfrica, NZLand ans SriLanka.

    His strike rate is 66 in the former (Aus 65, Pak 68, Win 64) and 89 in the latter !! (Saf 85, Eng 87, Srl 93 and NZLAND 104)

    This reflects on his wickets per innings in which he bowled which is 2.6 in the former and just 1.9 in the latter. He has 8 five fors (and one 10 for) in his 27 Tests against Aus, Pak and Windies but just 2 5 fors in 34 games against the other four countries.

    Clearly, Kumble had problem getting purchase from the wickets in England, New Zealand and South Africa In Sri Lanka it could be a combination of conditions as well as the batsmen being better equipped to handle his spin.

    What Kumble did to counter thes problems in the second cluster is to have tightened his bowling even further. He must have realised that since he was not getting purchase he needed to be very conservative and attack less and contain more. This is reflected in his relative economy rates in the two clusters

    In the PAW group he averages 3.3 per over ( max of 3.71 in Australia and minimum in Windies) whereas in the ENSS group he averages just 2.6 per over - below that mark in NZLAND and SAF and above it in SRL and ENG.

    That is why his averages in the two groups are similar although he had very different level of success in the two.
    Last edited by SJS; 30-12-2012 at 10:57 PM.

  11. #86
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    Clearly, Kumble had problem getting purchase from the wickets in England, New Zealand and South Africa In Sri Lanka it could be a combination of conditions as well as the batsmen being better equipped to handle his spin.

    What Kumble did to counter thes problems in the second cluster is to have tightened his bowling even further. He must have realised that since he was not getting purchase he needed to be very conservative and attack less and contain more. This is reflected in his relative economy rates in the two clusters
    Kumble's economy rate in E-N-S-S according your chart SJS was 2.60. In England specifically it was 2.84 (Average 41.41).

    This number of 2.60 only appears good in your analysis because it is relative to Kumble himself. Yet if we compare it to another similar Indian leggie like Chandra then it is nothing special. Chandra had an Economy Rate of 2.72 in England, yet was still able to 'single handedly' bowl India to their first series win in England during the 1971 series. Kumble can only dream of such feats.

    Kumble's Ecomomy Rate of 2.60 is actually not bad, but is still significantly worse than the likes of Derek Underwood who really knew how to contain in English conditions. His Economy Rate in England was 2.11, and that stat includes the series where he got smashed by Clive Lloyd and the West Indians.

    The fact is, Kumble outside of India was very ordinary indeed, and therefore cannot be considered an ATG in any true sense. I admire his longevity and tenacity, but not his skill. If I'm going to select a skillful bowler with a reasonable Economy Rate who can win me a Test match outside of India, then I'm going to select Chandra every time. Now he was a skillful bowler.
    Last edited by watson; 31-12-2012 at 03:05 PM.
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    Kumble's stats took a real beating in his final year of cricket (he was bowling as well as he ever had in his career in 2007), which was a combination of bad bowling, captaincy/injury problems and bowling on a fair few roads (and subsequently missing out on spin friendly wickets).

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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
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    He'll be working well in to September in 2013. If you call collecting Brownlows and premiership medals "work".

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    Would have benefitted from UDRS and umpires giving more front foot LBW's and close bat pad LBW's than any other bowler.

    Used to have so many appeals and close appeals turned down and used to hit the pad so many times. Even if he was a leg spinner technically, he wasn't a traditional one so LBW and bowled were a major source of dismissals for him.

    Umpires in those days didn't give as many LBW's on front foot, as they do these days. Still remember because he used to bowl very close to the stumps many times the umpire couldn't give LBW's for him as he used to come in front of them during the delivery stride. Rudi Koetzen used to get irritated by this the most and Bucknor never used to give him close LBW's either.

    Dare i say, BCCI would have accepted UDRS in current form if he was still around probably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cevno View Post
    Would have benefitted from UDRS and umpires giving more front foot LBW's and close bat pad LBW's than any other bowler.
    Vettori in his prime could challenge that I reckon, just because of how much bounce Kumble got. UDRS on the whole has, IMO anyway, shown that the area of the stumps is a bit wider than we give it credit for but that a lot of balls are going over the top that we never would have really guessed too.
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