Pakistan ATG Team - Open Voting

[grecian]

Saqlain in for Fazal and Asif in for Mushtaq will make Pak ATG amazingly versatile and balanced, you got to have a full time spinner in the Pak ATG otherwise other ATG teams would find this Pak attack little one dimensional.

Going round in circles here, but saqlain is by no means an ATG bowler. Fazal can do the donkey work, and is a much better bowler than Saqlain.

 

[Bouncer]

Going round in circles here, but saqlain is by no means an ATG bowler. Fazal can do the donkey work, and is a much better bowler than Saqlain.

Its not going around in circles - Its healthy discussion IMO.

My stand is that Pak ATG will be up against other ATG's and I believe that by having Saqlain in ATG the attack would have more variety to run through other ATG batting line ups.

May be your definition of ATG is just based on stats, mine isn't and I defiantly consider him an ATG off spinner but that can be discussed in separate thread.

 

[grecian]

Its not going around in circles - Its healthy discussion IMO.

My stand is that Pak ATG will be up against other ATG's and I believe that by having Saqlain in ATG the attack would have more variety to run through other ATG batting line ups.

May be your definition of ATG is just based on stats, mine isn't and I defiantly consider him an ATG off spinner but that can be discussed in separate thread.

Well, I've watched Saqlain a lot and he's no ATG, not sure what his stats are TBH.

He's much worse than Fazal, and probably not eons better than Mushtag.

Interesting fact Saqlain is only 300 days older than Ajmal.

 

[kyear2]

Variety doesn't help you to run through an ATG lineup, quality does, and Fazal is the better bowler.
Unless you are talking about Warne, Murali, Verity or O'Reilly, forcing in a spinner could be counter productive when you have pace bowlers of this quality.

 

[smash84]

Well, I've watched Saqlain a lot and he's no ATG, not sure what his stats are TBH.

He's much worse than Fazal, and probably not eons better than Mushtag.

Interesting fact Saqlain is only 300 days older than Ajmal.

awta and with kyear2

Fazal just the better bowler. Period

 

[marc71178]

Still think an attack comprised solely of pace bowlers would not be good enough and have enough variety when looking at this exercise. A spin bowler is essential if you're going to have a team for all conditions.

 

[L Trumper]

From all I have read, he was a quick spinner like O'Reilly, Verity and Underwood.

A 1963 tribute by John Arlott. Make of it what you will.

His usual pace was about that of Alec Bedser, with a faster ball and a slower one, in well-concealed reserve, and the ability to bowl a yorker. He himself is content that he was essentially a spin bowler, that his movement through the air was, in modern technical language, swerve - obtained by spin - rather than `swing', which derives from the 'seam-up' method. Certainly he made the ball move both ways through the air, and-with a first and second-finger application rather similar to that of Ramadhin - he bowled both the offbreak and the legbreak. Indeed, he could bowl the googly at about slow-medium pace and where, in exceptional conditions, the pitch dictated it, he could be a fine slow bowler.

How did you conclude Barnes was like Verity , Underwood from that?
Are you suggesting Verity , Underwood are bowling at the same pace as Bedser?

 

[L Trumper]

Dont think England is as strong as the top two teams either. Apart from the openers, their batting line up is not as strong as the West Indies and the lack the difference makers through the line up that Australia has. Their bowling is not as powerful as the W.I. and while as diverse as the Australians they are not of the same quality, especially when not in helpful conditions.

Not entire line up, only lower middle order really. You are vastly underrating middle order of hammond, barrington, compton. As far as bowling goes Barnes is better bowler than any one else on these sides, So I don't think it will be a problem either. So it depends on Botham, Knott who as far as batting goes are not on the same level with Sobers,Walcott or Miller, Gilly. That will be england's biggest weakness.

 

[Satyanash89]

Still think an attack comprised solely of pace bowlers would not be good enough and have enough variety when looking at this exercise. A spin bowler is essential if you're going to have a team for all conditions.

Dont necessarily agree with this, but i do agree that a spinner is a must for a team like Pakistan which will play more than half its matches in SC. Saqlain/Qadir would fit in very well into the team

 

[Agent Nationaux]

We should pick a whole 15 man squad if you are going to do this properly.

 

[kyear2]

How did you conclude Barnes was like Verity , Underwood from that?
Are you suggesting Verity , Underwood are bowling at the same pace as Bedser?

The Bedser comparison was just meant to be an approximate estimate. All I was saying is that like the others mentioned, Barnes was a quick spinner. Additionally from what I have seen of O'Reilly and especially Underwood, they were both just about medium.

Barnes himself has also stated that he used to spin the ball rather than cut it to get movement and his main delivery was a legbreak and also used a grip similar to Ramadin.

 

[kyear2]

Not entire line up, only lower middle order really. You are vastly underrating middle order of hammond, barrington, compton. As far as bowling goes Barnes is better bowler than any one else on these sides, So I don't think it will be a problem either. So it depends on Botham, Knott who as far as batting goes are not on the same level with Sobers,Walcott or Miller, Gilly. That will be england's biggest weakness.

As good as Barrington and Compton were, they were not as good or quote in the same league as Richards and Lara and I rate Headley just ahead of Hammond, though Hammond brings more to a team with his slip fielding and fast medium bowling.

The only way Barnes is better is if he is bowling to 1910's South Africa on matting pitches. His average againts Australia was just about par for his era it's againts the minnows S.A that he made hay (averaging around 8 with the ball) and neither the matting pitches of S.A of the uncoverd ones in England are still in use.

 

[kyear2]

We should pick a whole 15 man squad if you are going to do this properly.

Each team was named with two reserves who were the closest to making their respective team, I belive 13 is good enough for this exercise.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Each team was named with two reserves who were the closest to making their respective team, I belive 13 is good enough for this exercise.

No.

Should be 15 to reflect the squad size teams are allowed to pick nowadays.

 

[kyear2]

Three more is over kill in my opnion, but thats just my opnion. The two listed gives suficient flexibility, with just naming backup players.

 

[Slifer]

How about this game, who hasthe best 2nd XI with players not picked for the first XI:

WI

Fredricks
Haynes
Weekes
Kanhai
Lloyd
Worrell*
Dujon+
Roberts
Bishop
Walsh
Gibbs/Croft

Oz

Hayden
Bob Simpson
Ponting
Waugh S*
Harvey
Hussey
I Healey
Davidson
Lindwall
Gillespie
Grimmett

 

[kyear2]

Macabe over Hussey

 

[kyear2]

Excluded XI

Herbert Sutcliffe
Bobby Simpson
Ricky Ponting
Everton Weekes
Neil Harvey
Frank Worrell
Les Ames
Allan Davidson
Ray Lindwall
Hedley Verity
Andy Roberts

 

[MartinB]

I would agree with kyear2

The only way Barnes is better is if he is bowling to 1910's South Africa on matting pitches. His average againts Australia was just about par for his era it's againts the minnows S.A that he made hay (averaging around 8 with the ball) and neither the matting pitches of S.A of the uncoverd ones in England are still in use.

Barnes average Average=21.58, StrikeRate=54 against Australis is not as good as

• McGrath Average / Strike-Rate. Batsmen where averaging 50+ in McGrath's day while in Barnes day batsmen mostly averaged < 40.
• Lillee's Average / Strike Rate Against England is better than Barnes Ashes Average/Strike Rate.
• Australian contemporary Hugh Trumble(ESPN Cricinfo) has a very similar bowling average (21) as Barnes in Ashes test's, but Hugh also opened the batting (21 average). Hugh only played one match against South-Africa which looks to have been a batting fest. Hugh like Barnes was a fast spinner.
• The Australian allrounder's Monty Noble and Charles Macartney also had
  similar bowling averages to Barnes in the tests they played against Barnes.
  Note: Charles Macartneys over all figures are very similar to Aubrey Faulkners, he did not do as much bowling (Australia did have a better bowling line-up than SA).

Bowling averages in Tests Barnes played against Australia.

One suggestion for I have seen for rating pre World War one batsmen / bowlers is multiple the Batting / Bowling Average by 1.35, doing this the top batsmen average around 50 and the best bowlers average a bit over 20.

If you multiply Barnes figures by 1.35, he would average 13 against SA and 28.5 against Australia. That is very similar to Alec Bedser. Bedser averages 13/14 against India/Pakistan and around 29 against the established cricket nations.

 

[SJS]

Saqlain in for Fazal and Asif in for Mushtaq will make Pak ATG amazingly versatile and balanced, you got to have a full time spinner in the Pak ATG otherwise other ATG teams would find this Pak attack little one dimensional.

I would love to include a world class spinner and Salain is a terrific candidate for that. Mush taw lends strength to batting so it's a question of what is needed so one could go either way. Asif was an awesome bowler and I am a big admirer. Fazal was spoken off in near reverential terms by some old timers I had the pleasure of talking to particularly Hazare during a delightful chat one day at the IPCL grounds in the early 90's.

It is difficult and rather unfair to compare players from such different times so again it does not justify lab outing the point one way or the other. Clearly Asif would hd his own in any company in the 1950's and Fazal would be a handful to modern day batsmen

:-)