Should runs against India be discounted in statistical discussions?

[zorax]

Originally Posted by Burgey

I haven't seen much of the game tbh. But it seems, as always, the batsmen can fail in comparative terms and when the side is well down, the bowlers cop it. Like our last test vs SA - the bowling day two was piss but it only hid that we got rolled for 160 odd. Nearly always the way

I think it's because it only takes on good ball to get a batsman out; it's easier to forgive a whole lineup for collapsing because it just takes a small lapse to be dismissed. And it could be a good ball, or brilliant fielding, or a bad decision, that leads to a wicket, not necessarily a bad shot.

But as a bowler it takes a day full of bowling garbage to get hit around like Aus did. Not just one bad ball, but a day full of them. Which is significantly harder to forgive.

[zorax]

Originally Posted by Jono

If an English fan made this thread there'd be hell to pay and around 3 bans by now.

What? 0_o

[Spark]

Originally Posted by zorax

The thread title clearly states that this is a thread regarding statistical discussion.

So instead of just ignoring the thread becuase he isnt into stats, he instead comes here to get on his soapbox and preach how he hates discussing stats, and then everyone applauds him for that post?

Some people like discussing stats...but it seems extremely frowned upon by the people here, to the point where it is okay to go into a stat discussing thread in question to just rant about how you hate stats.

ITSTL.

@Jono, it isn't an entirely serious thread, i'll give you that, but it's far from trolling. What makes you think such a suggestion is so ridiculous that it doesn't even merit discussion?

He's saying that the fundamental premise is a silly one.

[Salamuddin]

Originally Posted by bagapath

India is going to be the next west indies after sachin, sehwag and zaheer retire soon.

Pujara will be like chanders playing in a team of indian sherwin campbells and pedro collinses.

Virat kohli = Ricardo Powell
MS Dhoni = Ridley Jacobs

In fact, india will be worse off coz there is no cubby and amby.

****! I am depressed!!!

Too early to make that call on Kohli surely - he's only playing his tenth test ?

The thing I don't get with India is why don't they actually try some fresh, new talent instead io oscillating between Yuvraj/Raina , sticking with Gambhir and a fading Tendulkar and Zaheer.

They did win the u-19 world cup earlier this year and their A team probably had the better of new zealand in a drawn series played in the Shaky isles - so the talent pool is surely not as shallow as the West Indies back in 1995.

[zorax]

Originally Posted by Spark

He's saying that the fundamental premise is a silly one.

Points like 'India are bowling better/worse than the statistics suggest' or 'they aren't as BD yet' or even 'we shouldn't discout any stats, include those against BD' are valid.

Going on a rant about how cherry picking stats and doing statistical analysis is all BS and one should use their eyes is going off topic a bit. Don't like stats, then don't enter in a discusson about them IMO.

But w'/ever.

India's bowling has been poor for ages, how much longer to they have to suck for before we get to the stage where we go "Yea, sure he averages 50, but he scored bulk of his runs bullying weak attacks like India and struggles against quality opposition" ? Or will that stage never come because, well, they are India - richest team in the world and former Test No. 1?

[Xuhaib]

Originally Posted by Jono

If an English fan made this thread there'd be hell to pay and around 3 bans by now.

Regarding India, our batting is far far far more worrisome than our bowling. This pitch is seriously flat and India were dismissed for just over 300. That's where the blame lies. India have only bowled very poorly in one innings so far imo, and that was England's 1st innings in Mumbai.

Are you sure?

with batting yes some of your greats are retired or on the verge of it but atleast you have seen guys like Pujara,Kohli and Rohit who have shown that if they realize their potential they can all average 45+ in test cricket but what about the bowling? Zaheer is on his last legs, Ishant never shows improvement the spinners are struggling to bowl good opposition out in India apart from Yadav there is not one bright spot.

[Salamuddin]

I think India have to be a bit patient with Ojha and Ashwin.

Ashwin has played 10 tests to Swann's 49.
Ojha has played 19 to Monty's 43.

It takes some some time for spinners to develop. I reckon Ojha's pretty decent actually - arguably the best left arm spinner India has had since Bedi.


The real worry has to be Ishant - 40 odd tests and he's still not showing signs of improvement.

[AndyZaltzHair]

Originally Posted by Salamuddin

I think India have to be a bit patient with Ojha and Ashwin.

yeah this is a key point I reckon. Think expectations went very high from Ashwin and Ojha, Ashwin quickly reaching 50 wickets and as such

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Xuhaib

Are you sure?

with batting yes some of your greats are retired or on the verge of it but atleast you have seen guys like Pujara,Kohli and Rohit who have shown that if they realize their potential they can all average 45+ in test cricket but what about the bowling? Zaheer is on his last legs, Ishant never shows improvement the spinners are struggling to bowl good opposition out in India apart from Yadav there is not one bright spot.

I meant in this series.

[doesitmatter]

or have the record vs India with an * as it was proposed in US to display the records of juiced-up baseball players..

[Teja.]

Originally Posted by Pup Clarke

Watching the player in question.

Example - Ashwin, i think, was the fastest bowler/spinner to 50 test wickets. This doesn't neccesarily mean that he's overall a good bowler obviously. Therefore, only really by watching him closely can you tell this.

This entire revisionist perspective on Ashwin is annoying me no end.

Yes, you are right, one should watch a bowler to know how good he is. However I refuse to believe anyone who has a proper cricketing brain and has actually watched Ashwin bowl early in the first innings of the first test and against NZ and WI would actually question whether he bowled well enough to deserve those wickets.

The problem right now is not that he has been found out and never was a particularly good bowler. The problem is that he has been bowling unimaginative dross for the last two games in contrast to some excellent bowling that he is actually capable of.

[silentstriker]

I think we should go game by game and in any game where one side plays really bad or was a draw, the records shouldn't count. We can then have a reasonable pool of only 50 Tests in history to judge players by. That'd be cool.

[Black_Warrior]

I always found the concept of taking out stats against a particular team quite mind boggling and hypocritical to be honest..hypocritical because people tend to do this only when it suits their argument.

Hence last year around this time I had argued this exact point..because the bowling attack of Vinay Kumar, Ashwin, Zaheer and Ishant were not all that different from the so called 'minnows' but obviously that did not go down too well with the Michael Clarke worshippers because that would go against them..

Bangladesh currently have two spinners who in their home conditions are better bowlers than Ashwin and Ojha in their home conditions..

Similary, for Zimbabwe, Brandes, Streak and Blignaut were a country mile ahead of the Indian seamers.. so once again that makes no sense..

So if you are going to leave out stats against BD and Zim, then you should leave out stats against India too..but if you are unwilling to do that, then be fair and count BD and Zim too.

[SJS]

Two pages for this thread ?? What's happening to CW

[zorax]

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

I always found the concept of taking out stats against a particular team quite mind boggling and hypocritical to be honest..hypocritical because people tend to do this only when it suits their argument.

Hence last year around this time I had argued this exact point..because the bowling attack of Vinay Kumar, Ashwin, Zaheer and Ishant were not all that different from the so called 'minnows' but obviously that did not go down too well with the Michael Clarke worshippers because that would go against them..

Bangladesh currently have two spinners who in their home conditions are better bowlers than Ashwin and Ojha in their home conditions..

Similary, for Zimbabwe, Brandes, Streak and Blignaut were a country mile ahead of the Indian seamers.. so once again that makes no sense..

So if you are going to leave out stats against BD and Zim, then you should leave out stats against India too..but if you are unwilling to do that, then be fair and count BD and Zim too.

Yea, that's what I was getting at. It would only be fair, wouldn't it?