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Should runs against India be discounted in statistical discussions?

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
Nah, India's bowlers aren't that bad really. In India their record is at least decent. Away from home in recent times you would have a point.
they have feasted on ordinary batting line-ups unfamiliar to the conditions at home which has made their stats look ok.

ashiwn hardly puts many revs on the ball, is impatient, inconsistent and is only good for T20s

ohja is more of a containment bowler who also barely puts many revs.

zaheer is now old and therefore slow which is making him ineffective (trundler pace)

yadav the only shinning light hasn't played the last two tests.
 

NasserFan207

International Vice-Captain
Which 'stats' should be counted in your eyes? Apparantly everyone is just ****, except for a few players/teams who are just mediocre due to everyone else being ****

The 'things were better in my day' crowd are really starting to get out of hand on this forum
 

cnerd123

likes this
Ishant has always looked good but has been ineffective for pretty much his whole career. Especially this year.

Praveen was good in England, and got injured yea? Hasn't been picked again.

RP got the yips. Sreesanth is Sreesanth.

Bhajji has beeen super-ineffective for ages.

Vinay Kumar was mediocre, not Test quality.

Yea, who's left?
 

cnerd123

likes this
Which 'stats' should be counted in your eyes? Apparantly everyone is just ****, except for a few players/teams who are just mediocre due to everyone else being ****
It was more of a general question - will we ever get to the stage where we will be willing to discredit one of the Big 8 countries the same way we tend to discredit the likes of BD and ZImbabwe for being 'minnow bashing'?

India's bowling has been terrible for a while now. Really terrible. Even on helpful tracks. Is it wrong to say they are as bad as BD?

And if they are as bad as BD, can we just dismiss runs against them, the same way we tend to pay less heed to runs scored against BD?

General food for thought.

+ a general discussion on how bad India's bowling is now is always nice.
 

NasserFan207

International Vice-Captain
I'm not denying that India's seamers have been diabolical for years now (with the exception of Zaheer and now maybe Yadav). But the facts are at home their spinners have been pretty effective bowling to various tourists. Whether you think thats down to **** batting or fluke bowling, they've been fairly successful.

This is just a bandwagon thread, no offense. The truth is, in the current game, Eden Gardens has always been and still is a total road. The matches always come alive in the last five sessions, and that will probably happen here again. In the last test, KP and Cook batted brilliantly, while India were poor.

Again, too many snap opinions being formed. The reason India is currently failing against England is down to their batting, not their bowling.
 
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centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
Which 'stats' should be counted in your eyes? Apparantly everyone is just ****, except for a few players/teams who are just mediocre due to everyone else being ****

The 'things were better in my day' crowd are really starting to get out of hand on this forum
when did i mention anything about which stats should be counted. all stats are counted.


people still seem to think that zaheer is the zaheer from 2007-2009. moreover they have the misconception that indian spinners are actually decent.

compare the way swann and panesar bowled on this flat wicket on day 1 to how ojha and ashwin have bowled.
compare the way they bowled on a spinning beauty in the last test.
you'll realize how **** indian spinners are.

all in all, it's the second worst attack out of all the top 8 nations.
 
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NasserFan207

International Vice-Captain
when did i mention anything about which stats should be counted. all stats are counted.


people still seem to think that zaheer is the zaheer from 2007-2009. moreover they have the misconception that indian spinners are actually decent.

compare the way swann and panesar bowled on this flat wicket on day 1 to how ojha and ashwin have bowled.
compare the way they bowled on a spinning beauty in the last test.
you'll realize how **** indian spinners are.

all in all, it's the second worst attack out of all the top 8 nations.
I don't think Swann or Panesar were anything special. Panesar has been more effective than the other spinners due to the pace that he bowls, yes. He's been superior. But I don't think this makes the Indian spinners ****. Ashwin admittedly has been very disappointing after the first test. I think Ojha has actually bowled quite well though.

Truth is, England have batted very well. Cook has been phenomenal, and KP played a brilliant innings in the last test. They've drastically improved with experience against spin in the SC. Their Pakistan series was the best thing to ever happen to their batting line up.

Main difference between England and India is that India appear quite arrogant and refuse to adjust their games or learn from mistakes. Case in point this whole pitch controversy, and blaming the losses in Australia and England on 'green tops'.

Futhermore, I can't stand stats analysis and cherrypicking BS. I dont really care about averages or whatever anyway, I watch a lot of cricket and judge with my eyes. However, if you are going to cherrypick stats then you have to do it properly. Just saying 'batsman X scored loads of runs against Team X, who are **** so those runs should be discounted' is bad analysis. You need to analyse when those runs were scored, where the batsman batted, how other players performed, who exactly bowled and what the conditions were like. Its a lot of bloody work, and probably a waste of time, but if you want to cherry pick and be taken seriously thats how you've got to do it.

Personally though I can't be bothered. Would rather just watch some ****ing cricket

/Rant
 
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Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Which 'stats' should be counted in your eyes?
Watching the player in question.

Example - Ashwin, i think, was the fastest bowler/spinner to 50 test wickets. This doesn't neccesarily mean that he's overall a good bowler obviously. Therefore, only really by watching him closely can you tell this.
 
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AndyZaltzHair

Hall of Fame Member
The word "discount" will be harsh at this stage, I would say lesser value by judgement. But tbh I'm not a fan of disregarding runs that much only because it's made to inferior bowling. To make 100+/150+(batsman) or 450+/500+(team total) against weak bowling still requires some determination and concentration.
 
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Spark

Global Moderator
I don't think Swann or Panesar were anything special. Panesar has been more effective than the other spinners due to the pace that he bowls, yes. He's been superior. But I don't think this makes the Indian spinners ****. Ashwin admittedly has been very disappointing after the first test. I think Ojha has actually bowled quite well though.

Truth is, England have batted very well. Cook has been phenomenal, and KP played a brilliant innings in the last test. They've drastically improved with experience against spin in the SC. Their Pakistan series was the best thing to ever happen to their batting line up.

Main difference between England and India is that India appear quite arrogant and refuse to adjust their games or learn from mistakes. Case in point this whole pitch controversy, and blaming the losses in Australia and England on 'green tops'.

Futhermore, I can't stand stats analysis and cherrypicking BS. I dont really care about averages or whatever anyway, I watch a lot of cricket and judge with my eyes. However, if you are going to cherrypick stats then you have to do it properly. Just saying 'batsman X scored loads of runs against Team X, who are **** so those runs should be discounted' is bad analysis. You need to analyse when those runs were scored, where the batsman batted, how other players performed, who exactly bowled and what the conditions were like. Its a lot of bloody work, and probably a waste of time, but if you want to cherry pick and be taken seriously thats how you've got to do it.

Personally though I can't be bothered. Would rather just watch some ****ing cricket

/Rant
I love this post
 

benchmark00

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Yeah, pretty much summed up my thoughts on stats, which have been well documented in the past.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I don't think Swann or Panesar were anything special. Panesar has been more effective than the other spinners due to the pace that he bowls, yes. He's been superior. But I don't think this makes the Indian spinners ****. Ashwin admittedly has been very disappointing after the first test. I think Ojha has actually bowled quite well though.

Truth is, England have batted very well. Cook has been phenomenal, and KP played a brilliant innings in the last test. They've drastically improved with experience against spin in the SC. Their Pakistan series was the best thing to ever happen to their batting line up.

Main difference between England and India is that India appear quite arrogant and refuse to adjust their games or learn from mistakes. Case in point this whole pitch controversy, and blaming the losses in Australia and England on 'green tops'.

Futhermore, I can't stand stats analysis and cherrypicking BS. I dont really care about averages or whatever anyway, I watch a lot of cricket and judge with my eyes. However, if you are going to cherrypick stats then you have to do it properly. Just saying 'batsman X scored loads of runs against Team X, who are **** so those runs should be discounted' is bad analysis. You need to analyse when those runs were scored, where the batsman batted, how other players performed, who exactly bowled and what the conditions were like. Its a lot of bloody work, and probably a waste of time, but if you want to cherry pick and be taken seriously thats how you've got to do it.

Personally though I can't be bothered. Would rather just watch some ****ing cricket

/Rant
:thumbup:
 

tooextracool

International Coach
I don't think Swann or Panesar were anything special. Panesar has been more effective than the other spinners due to the pace that he bowls, yes. He's been superior. But I don't think this makes the Indian spinners ****. Ashwin admittedly has been very disappointing after the first test. I think Ojha has actually bowled quite well though.

Truth is, England have batted very well. Cook has been phenomenal, and KP played a brilliant innings in the last test. They've drastically improved with experience against spin in the SC. Their Pakistan series was the best thing to ever happen to their batting line up.

Main difference between England and India is that India appear quite arrogant and refuse to adjust their games or learn from mistakes. Case in point this whole pitch controversy, and blaming the losses in Australia and England on 'green tops'.

Futhermore, I can't stand stats analysis and cherrypicking BS. I dont really care about averages or whatever anyway, I watch a lot of cricket and judge with my eyes. However, if you are going to cherrypick stats then you have to do it properly. Just saying 'batsman X scored loads of runs against Team X, who are **** so those runs should be discounted' is bad analysis. You need to analyse when those runs were scored, where the batsman batted, how other players performed, who exactly bowled and what the conditions were like. Its a lot of bloody work, and probably a waste of time, but if you want to cherry pick and be taken seriously thats how you've got to do it.

Personally though I can't be bothered. Would rather just watch some ****ing cricket

/Rant
Agree to some extent, though I think Panesar this test has bowled better than last test (where quite frankly he got the kind of wicket that was custom made for him) and I dont think that is down to bowling quicker. He's bowled with more variety, been willing to toss the ball up occasionally and done all that you can expect off him in this test, certainly a remarkable improvement over his previous 42.

I also think you give the England batsman far too much credit for being utterly hopeless for most of this series (bar Pietersen, Cook and Prior). Quite frankly at least 2 of them have strong prior records against spin so honestly no one is surprised about them. Compton has obviously put in hard work on his technique during the series and done well to learn, however his 50 odd on the flattest deck of the series proved mostly nothing about his prowess against spin. Trott has looked most at sea, Bell has gotten worse with every passing series in the subcontinent and I don't think we've seen enough of Patel and Bairstow to judge.
 

bagapath

International Captain
India is going to be the next west indies after sachin, sehwag and zaheer retire soon.

Pujara will be like chanders playing in a team of indian sherwin campbells and pedro collinses.

Virat kohli = Ricardo Powell
MS Dhoni = Ridley Jacobs

In fact, india will be worse off coz there is no cubby and amby.

****! I am depressed!!!
 

NasserFan207

International Vice-Captain
Cheers lads

India is going to be the next west indies after sachin, sehwag and zaheer retire soon.

Pujara will be like chanders playing in a team of indian sherwin campbells and pedro collinses.

Virat kohli = Ricardo Powell
MS Dhoni = Ridley Jacobs

In fact, india will be worse off coz there is no cubby and amby.

****! I am depressed!!!


Pedro Collins was gun.

Also don't be silly mate, India will be fine
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Surely this is a trolling thread and hence should be shut down? Its irrelevant whether the person who started it is Indian or an Indian fan.
 

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