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Thread: Ross Taylor likely to be shafted from the captaincy?

  1. #856
    School Boy/Girl Cricketer banquetbear's Avatar
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    ...for me the rot runs deep. Here is one of Fleming's companies:

    Business Portal | Business.govt.nz

    McCullum has a ten percent share, but for me that is unimportant. The important name is Neil Maxwell: who I am assuming is the same Neil Maxwell who is in charge of the US 20/20 league that is already delayed a year and that I'm predicting is going to be a disaster. What I'm saying is that there is a whole other agenda in play here: one that has been unfurling in the background over the last few years. NZ Cricket has been hijacked. This captains report is just the first step to take the game back. There are going to be casualties. But whether or not McCullum or Taylor is captain or whether or not Hesson stays as the coach or not are largely unimportant. There is a much much bigger issue at play here and the future of the game is at stake.

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    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    you just can't have leaders that lack integrity full stop. anyway I don't want to get worked up over this - it is out of our control.
    my tongue was firmly in cheek
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  3. #858
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
    ...the constitution and the re-election were going to happen anyway: they had nothing to do with what happened to Taylor. While getting rid of the board will be a good thing for NZ Cricket: those most responsible for this debacle: White and Hesson, aren't going to be touched.

    This has gone on too long and we are tired of this crap. The line has to be drawn somewhere. From the sacking of Andy Moles to the "is Greatbatch the coach?" to John Wright walking away it is absolutely crystal clear there is something majorly dis-functional with the way NZ Cricket is being run and the Taylor affair is simply the one where we have to say enough is enough. So McCullum won a one-day series? Whoop de do. Taylor won three test matches in his short run: and each of those wins were fighing, down to the wire wins that could have gone either way.
    So you're response to New Zealand's inability to hang on to a coach for more than 12 months, is to sack the latest coach after 6 months? I agree in general Hesson and White won't be touched by this, and that that's not a good thing, but I continue to fail to see how gossip about how everyone in the team hates each other is going to help with this.

    Also, please don't rate New Zealand's victory over Zimbabwe as an accomplishment. It was frankly embarassing that Zimbabwe got as close to us in that match as they did. Yes Taylor won two test matches away from home. He also lost 5 in a row (would've been 7 if it hadn't been for rain at the Basin in the 3rd test vs SA). I'm not saying New Zealand's dreadful performances during his reign were his fault, because they weren't. But let's not pretend like his run as captain was an astounding success, brought low by the Machiavellian schemes of the people who cared for nothing else besides seeing McCullum as captain.


    And the accusations aren't "baseless." While I wish that the people who made them would "come on the record", we have heard these stories before, reported by other people who have verified sources within the team.

    No-one was questioning Taylor's decisions while he was captain until after he was sacked: then all of a sudden the attacks came out of the woodwork. Lets not forget how vicious some of those attacks were, like the accusation from Richard Boock that Taylor was abusive, swearing and cussing out players in the dressing room. That accusation was sourced directly from a player in the team: a player that is probably still playing right now. Taylor wasn't just fired: his character was bought into disrepute by the very people he has to play with now. And right now he's playing in a team where the coach still won't talk to him.
    I would say those accusations are no more viscious than the current ones that effectively call McCullum a drunk and a bully, who only wants to play in the team when it's on his own terms. And I would say that people certainly were questioning Taylor's captaincy prior to his axing, at least on these forums.

    Look, it's not like I'm happy with the way Taylor was treated, or with the way the NZC has run cricket in recent years. My problem is that this report doesn't really seem to have much to do with criticising NZ cricket or the people who run it, as it does with criticising individuals within the New Zealand team: McCullum, Hesson, Vettori etc. It's divisive bull**** that will serve no purpose other than to drive the players apart from one another at a time when they should really be trying to come together.
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    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    I could live with the status quo in the side if NZC get an overhaul and it is made very clear to the players and management they are on their final warning. Anymore shenanigans and you're gone.


  5. #860
    School Boy/Girl Cricketer banquetbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    So you're response to New Zealand's inability to hang on to a coach for more than 12 months, is to sack the latest coach after 6 months?
    ...did I say sack the coach? No I didn't.

    I agree in general Hesson and White won't be touched by this, and that that's not a good thing, but I continue to fail to see how gossip about how everyone in the team hates each other is going to help with this.
    This isn't about "who hates who." Its about a completely disfunctional organization that keeps making disfunctional decisions. I'm not sure why you are happy for them to continue.


    Also, please don't rate New Zealand's victory over Zimbabwe as an accomplishment. It was frankly embarassing that Zimbabwe got as close to us in that match as they did.
    It was an accomplishment. We nearly lost it. Zimbabwe played well. I'm not of the mindset that the test teams are all that far apart. NZ got destroyed by South Africa this season and a few weeks later we are matching it with England. When we beat Zimbabwe NZ Cricket was in an extremely bad state and it was a victory the team needed.

    Yes Taylor won two test matches away from home.
    Actually he won three.

    He also lost 5 in a row (would've been 7 if it hadn't been for rain at the Basin in the 3rd test vs SA). I'm not saying New Zealand's dreadful performances during his reign were his fault, because they weren't. But let's not pretend like his run as captain was an astounding success, brought low by the Machiavellian schemes of the people who cared for nothing else besides seeing McCullum as captain.
    And lets not pretend that McCullum is "the second coming" like is being portrayed at the moment because he won a one day series and drew a test series.

    I would say those accusations are no more viscious than the current ones that effectively call McCullum a drunk and a bully, who only wants to play in the team when it's on his own terms.
    Cite?

    And I would say that people certainly were questioning Taylor's captaincy prior to his axing, at least on these forums.
    Cite?

    Look, it's not like I'm happy with the way Taylor was treated, or with the way the NZC has run cricket in recent years. My problem is that this report doesn't really seem to have much to do with criticising NZ cricket or the people who run it, as it does with criticising individuals within the New Zealand team: McCullum, Hesson, Vettori etc. It's divisive bull**** that will serve no purpose other than to drive the players apart from one another at a time when they should really be trying to come together.
    The report isn't the cause of the divisive bull***. New Zealand Cricket's decision to cover this incident up, close up shop and not answer questions is the cause of this divisive bull***. You are blaming the wrong person. There is some serious empire building going on right now and it will end up with NZ Cricket going bankrupt unless a stop is put to it.

    I'll say it again. The report is not the problem. Just last week NZ Cricket blacklisted Radio Sport because they refused to be muzzled in the questions they asked Bob Carter. NZ Cricket is the problem, not those who are asking the questions.

  6. #861
    School Boy/Girl Cricketer banquetbear's Avatar
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    ...and lets just be clear on exactly what Richard Boock said. This wasn't some "internet blowhard" on a forum. He claimed that:

    -sources in the team had informed him that Taylor had lost the dressing room.
    -that he was abusive, swearing at individual members and that the abuse was worthy of going to the employment court.

    There was a directed campaign to attack Taylor's character and was only one of many that came out in a rush after Taylor got dumped. They have not been backed up by anyone else. They clearly came from the camp, from a player that Taylor has to play with now. And from all the evidence gathered since then, were flat out lies and/or half truths.

  7. #862
    Cricketer Of The Year Hurricane's Avatar
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    Any moves to get accountability should be done through the appropriate processes and with minimal publicity. Why? The whole thing must be ****ing with Taylor's mind - at this rate I will be shocked if he makes any runs in England.
    The arguments do not need to be played out in public - only the final decisions to replace people. And btw if they (Parker and co) get control hesson is toast.
    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
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  8. #863
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
    ...did I say sack the coach? No I didn't.
    You said that Hesson and White were directly responsible for the shambles, heavily implying that you wanted them canned. If this is a misinterpretation of what you were saying then I apologise.

    This isn't about "who hates who." Its about a completely disfunctional organization that keeps making disfunctional decisions. I'm not sure why you are happy for them to continue.
    I agree it's not about who hates who. That's what I've said several times. And I've also said I'm not happy for "them" (I presume you mean the senior leadership of the NZC) to continue. I'm not sure where you're getting any of this from.

    Look, if this report were attacking NZC over it's investment policies, or its Board appointments or its management of the media, then I'd be right behind them. But it isn't. The stuff that's been made public primarily focussed on how McCullum and co. have wronged Taylor and co. If doesn't really comment much on the NZC at all, besides stating that it was a bad decision to appoint Hesson if he was determined to replace Taylor with McCullum.

    It was an accomplishment. We nearly lost it. Zimbabwe played well. I'm not of the mindset that the test teams are all that far apart. NZ got destroyed by South Africa this season and a few weeks later we are matching it with England. When we beat Zimbabwe NZ Cricket was in an extremely bad state and it was a victory the team needed.
    I'm sorry, then you're just wrong. Zimbabwe are an appalling cricket side, barely better than a good club team. Bangladesh aren't much better. There's a reason why they never beat the top 8 sides. It's because they are vastly inferior cricket teams (at least in test cricket). The differences between SA and ENG, and ENG and NZ are nothing compared to the distance between even Zim and the major cricket playing nations (especially in tests). If New Zealand had lost that match, it would've been the lowest moment in NZ test history since 26ao.

    And lets not pretend that McCullum is "the second coming" like is being portrayed at the moment because he won a one day series and drew a test series.
    I never said that it was. Significant problems remain with the side and I've been keen to acknowledge that. But I don't think McCullum's captaincy is one of those significant problems.

    Cite?
    "Sources close to Taylor and others who have been part of the team in various roles say this was in fact the older players - McCullum, Mills, Oram and Vettori - saying he would not drink with them in the bar. One young player, who shall remain nameless, objected to the continual ridicule he got from this group of older players for wanting to practice more. "

    "McCullum is mostly injured and appears to want to play on his terms"

    Cite?
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNZ View Post
    Always felt Brendon was the better candidate but Hesson is going to find it hard to take it off Ross and give it to a guy everyone knows is a close compadre of his.

    Brendon to me reads the game better, is more open to being willing to lose a game to win a game (lord knows we're good at doing the former anyway) and giving him the responsibility could have brought the best out in him. Speaks better, better with the media, etc etc
    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    Also, wholly unconvinced by Ross Taylor as Captain. Taking too much on his shoulders, I feel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kippax View Post
    I wonder if Ross loses the captaincy before NZ's home summer. He's trying to be rational about our ****ness in a Wellalbidarned way, but I doubt the average fan will stand for a starfish who just keeps taking this with what they'll quickly perceive as 'I got mine' conceit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    This is just awful captaincy from Taylor. Undoing a lot of the good will he earnt with his first innings knock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Taylor isn't a terrible captain.
    The report isn't the cause of the divisive bull***. New Zealand Cricket's decision to cover this incident up, close up shop and not answer questions is the cause of this divisive bull***. You are blaming the wrong person. There is some serious empire building going on right now and it will end up with NZ Cricket going bankrupt unless a stop is put to it.

    I'll say it again. The report is not the problem. Just last week NZ Cricket blacklisted Radio Sport because they refused to be muzzled in the questions they asked Bob Carter. NZ Cricket is the problem, not those who are asking the questions.
    Again, I'm not saying that the report is the cause of the divisive bull****. Nor am I giving the thumbs up to the NZC for how they handled the Taylor affair. My point, from the start, has been that airing the dirty washing of the players (e.g. internal factions within the team, accusations of bullying on both sides, accusations that cetain players are only looking out for themselves and their mates) isn't going to help the team. Nor do I think it will shine a light on the behaviour of the NZC.
    Last edited by Bahnz; 05-04-2013 at 11:40 PM.

  9. #864
    International Captain wellAlbidarned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz
    You said that Hesson and White were directly responsible for the shambles, heavily implying that you wanted them canned. If this is a misinterpretation of what you were saying then I apologise. But I don't think it is.
    If Hesson and co to openly admitted that they ****ed up and apologised to Ross that'd be acceptable. Accountability doesn't always mean punishment, it's just about transparency.
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  10. #865
    School Boy/Girl Cricketer banquetbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    You said that Hesson and White were directly responsible for the shambles, heavily implying that you wanted them canned. If this is a misinterpretation of what you were saying then I apologise. But I don't think it is.
    ...read it again. You said

    "The national body's constitution is being rewritten and the board will be up for election later this year, so there is some accountability for the Taylor cock-up."

    The constitution being rewritten and the board re election was always on the cards: this is not "some accountability", its the process. If there was going to be any accountability it would be on Hesson and White: and nothing has happened. That was my entire point. There has been no accountability. If things don't change: there will be no accountability.

    I agree it's not about who hates who. That's what I've said several times. And I've also said I'm not happy for "them" (I presume you mean the senior leadership of the NZC) to continue. I'm not sure where you're getting any of this from.

    Look, if this report were attacking NZC over it's investment policies, or its Board appointments or its management of the media, then I'd be right behind them. But it isn't. The stuff that's been made public primarily focussed on how McCullum and co. have wronged Taylor and co. If doesn't really comment much on the NZC at all, besides stating that it was a bad decision to appoint Hesson if he was determined to replace Taylor with McCullum.
    Oh come on. NZ Cricket have shut up shop and aren't talking. They could have picked any of the bizzare things that have happened in the last few years and written a report about that. How about Vettori's run as Captain and "Coach?"

    They had to start somewhere. In order to go after the investment policies they would actually need NZ Cricket to talk to them and supply information. They would need people on the inside. That wasn't going to happen.

    I'll admit that this wasn't the "best written report." But its a free country and they can write whatever the heck they want to. All NZ Cricket need to do to stop this sort of thing happening is to stop saying that it is over when it is not.

    I'm sorry, then you're just wrong. Zimbabwe are an appalling cricket side, barely better than a good club team. Bangladesh aren't much better. There's a reason why they never beat the top 8 sides. It's because they are vastly inferior cricket teams (at least in test cricket). The differences between SA and ENG, and ENG and NZ are nothing compared to the distance between even Zim and the major cricket playing nations (especially in tests). If New Zealand had lost that match, it would've been the lowest moment in NZ test history since 26ao.
    :: shrugs ::

    You are entitled to your opinion. At least Taylor wasn't captain at our actual lowest moment in NZ test history since 26ao: which was South Africa a few months ago. It was a good test win. There were wobbles, but Taylor took a risk with his declaration and it nearly bit him in the butt. But as captain he held his nerve and they gutsed it out for a win. You might take victory over the minnows as a given: but England came to New Zealand this year with the exact same attitude and it nearly bit them in the butt.

    Zimbabwe came close because Brendan Taylor had one of those perfect days. Those days happen and if they had of won it would have been well deserved in a hard fought match where our team actually played very well. You can't just ignore those victories because you are arrogant enough to think we "deserved to win it simply because of who we are."

    I never said that it was. Significant problems remain with the side and I've been keen to acknowledge that. But I don't think McCullum's captaincy is one of those significant problems.
    And neither do I. But the meme since Taylor got dumped has been that he was a poor captain that didn't take risks and McCullum is an exciting captain who does take risks. The reality is that they are both very different types of captains who did well under the circumstances and with the right support could have built an exceptional team.

    "Sources close to Taylor and others who have been part of the team in various roles say this was in fact the older players - McCullum, Mills, Oram and Vettori - saying he would not drink with them in the bar. One young player, who shall remain nameless, objected to the continual ridicule he got from this group of older players for wanting to practice more. "
    Nothing here about McCullum being a drunk or a bully. Nothing close to the accusations made against Taylor.

    "McCullum is mostly injured and appears to want to play on his terms"
    Accepted. Now: was this assertion wrong? I don't think it was. He wanted to open the batting, even though it was entirely unsuited to opening, and it is only now that he is batting in "the right spot" that his batting is starting to come right again.

    Originally Posted by SteveNZ
    Always felt Brendon was the better candidate but Hesson is going to find it hard to take it off Ross and give it to a guy everyone knows is a close compadre of his.

    Brendon to me reads the game better, is more open to being willing to lose a game to win a game (lord knows we're good at doing the former anyway) and giving him the responsibility could have brought the best out in him. Speaks better, better with the media, etc etc
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed
    Also, wholly unconvinced by Ross Taylor as Captain. Taking too much on his shoulders, I feel.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kippax
    I wonder if Ross loses the captaincy before NZ's home summer. He's trying to be rational about our ****ness in a Wellalbidarned way, but I doubt the average fan will stand for a starfish who just keeps taking this with what they'll quickly perceive as 'I got mine' conceit.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bahnz
    This is just awful captaincy from Taylor. Undoing a lot of the good will he earnt with his first innings knock.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Athlai
    Taylor isn't a terrible captain.
    Accepted that it was said on the forums.

    But to be honest: a lot of stuff is said on these forums that I don't agree with: and a lot of stuff is said that is just flat out wrong. Now go back to my original statement without your qualifier: ("found on these forums") and show me the people who were openly criticising his captaincy outside of the forums before he was fired.

    Again, I'm not saying that the report is the cause of the divisive bull****. Nor am I giving the thumbs up to the NZC for how they handled the Taylor affair. My point, from the start, has been that airing the dirty washing of the players (e.g. internal factions within the team, accusations of bullying on both sides, accusations that cetain players are only looking out for themselves and their mates) isn't going to help the team. Nor do I think it will shine a light on the behaviour of the NZC.
    Doing nothing will not help the team. "Following the process" will not help the team. I got into a dispute with a company last year. I followed the process, sent emails, called people, and did all the right things: I got ignored. I went semi-public and it was resolved within hours.

    There is going to be some blood shed over this: and there needs to be. The process is disfunctional. IT DOES NOT WORK. Want evidence for that? Ask someone from NZ Cricket if Mark Greatbatch was the Black Caps coach. The process hasn't been working since Andy Moles got the shaft. The Taylor affair is simply the last straw.

    I mean seriously: do you think pretending everything is fine will mean that everything is fine? Look how well it turned out for this guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690 (Warning: violence and a couple of rude words)

    This stuff has to come out. How long do you think Taylor is going to play in a team where the coach won't talk to him? If things stay the way they are I can't see him lasting longer than a year in the Black Caps uniform. Keeping stuff like this quiet never ever works. If NZ cricket isn't going to take the lead, then someone else will.

  11. #866
    State Vice-Captain Meridio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    Look, if this report were attacking NZC over it's investment policies, or its Board appointments or its management of the media, then I'd be right behind them. But it isn't. The stuff that's been made public primarily focussed on how McCullum and co. have wronged Taylor and co. If doesn't really comment much on the NZC at all, besides stating that it was a bad decision to appoint Hesson if he was determined to replace Taylor with McCullum.
    Thing is that it does seem to be primarily about NZC's incompetence in general, rather than the Taylor business specifically. According to John Parker in Black Caps Captaincy Saga Tip of Iceberg, Says John... | Stuff.co.nz:
    The Taylor issue is becoming a red herring. Instead of concentrating on one incident, the bigger picture needs to be what's looked at - that's the overall governance," Parker said.
    and
    Despite dismissing publicity around the group's findings about Taylor's sacking as a sideshow to the main issue, it is also clear that Parker's group will revisit the captaincy issue if he and others are successful in gaining board positions.

  12. #867
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    BB, please try and refrain form negative labels like "arrogant". It makes the whole tone of the discussion unnecessarily antagonistic.

    Well this is just going to keep going around and around in circles, so I'll just finish up by saying that I thoroughly disagree that the Captains group's review will achieve little else than worsening player disunity, and that if it is an attempt to enforce wider reform, it was more than a little ham-fisted.

  13. #868
    State 12th Man Jezroy's Avatar
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    The whole thing is going round in circles now.

    Hopefully some change happens at the top of NZC. If the team start to perform consistently to their best (not win every time, but don't have all the nightmare days they have been having over the last 6 years or so), then I don' think anyone will really question McHesson.

    But the backroom **** has to be sorted out. It appears David White is a weak leader. It appears there are hidden agendas. It appears that a lot of people on the NZC board aren't up to it.

    That's what needs changing.

    Bring back Martin Seddon.

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    Some of the new elements/changes in the draft constitution include:

    - A skills matrix for the NZC Board which can be updated to address the rapidly changing environment.

    - All Board Directors to be elected with no appointed members. Vacancies will be advertised publicly and anyone can apply.

    - All Board candidates to be assessed by the Appointments Panel with the best applicants short listed for interview by the Panel.

    - The Appointments Panel to comprise five people - a convenor (nominated by the NZC Board), three MA Chairmen (rotated each year from the six MA Chairmen) and one person nominated by Sport New Zealand.

    - Each candidate recommended for election must receive more than 50% of the votes cast at the AGM to be elected.

    - Provision to be made for remuneration to be paid to NZC Directors if the Appointments Panel recommends it and it is approved at the AGM.

    Mackinnon said the main reason for adopting this governance model was to ensure NZC had the best people in key roles.

    "First and foremost it is designed to attract the best possible candidates by opening nominations to all parties and having a confidential process akin to a job interview with limited scope for politicking once the Appointments Panel has made its recommendations."

    "It is also important to recognise that this is only a draft and NZC invites all interested parties to comment on the proposed constitution," said Mackinnon.
    Cricket community asked for feedback on draft constitution - Yahoo! New Zealand Sport

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jezroy View Post
    Not completely - just get rid of all the crap. That's what I do when I do poo. I don't get rid of all the stuff that makes the poo. Just the poo.
    Quote Originally Posted by KiWiNiNjA View Post
    And the poo keeps on coming back.

    Sounds like you need to get rid of the stuff that is making the poo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jezroy View Post
    That's fair. As long as the poo you are getting rid of is unhealthy.

    There is some poo that is perfectly normal to have on a regular basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by wellAlbidarned View Post
    Yeah but if a person poos on his fellow employees then they generally get fired

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