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Thread: Has Tim Southee "arrived"?

  1. #16
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M0rphin3 View Post
    Hopefully. Although tbf mostly had to bowl in harsh conditions even before - when was it when he looked utterly dire?
    Pretty much his entire career except his debut.
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  2. #17
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Really rate him. Always thought he'd do well after the 2011 World Cup, where he showed an ability to reverse it at pace. Hope he can continue his progress.

  3. #18
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    I didn't know he'd left.

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  4. #19
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Tim Southee? Should be Tim Northee.

    He's arrived, needs to learn how to bowl in good bowling conditions though.


  5. #20
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    These arguments about conditions being helpful and non helpful conditions based on what country you are playing in are some of the weakest ever. I feel like most people that do that just sterotype rather than actually watching that series. Seriously just because pitches happened to be flat for one particular series doesn't mean its always going to be flat. Do people seriously believe that the Hobart pitch NZ won in last year was always green? If these pitches were so flat the ball wouldn't be doing so much. I am willing to bet the pitches NZ produced for SA last year were flatter than this. They certainly couldn't make the ball do so much in that series.

    Not taking anything away from Southee he was awesome but these pitches weren't that flat. The pitches in which Aus vs SA series that's going on now those would be flat pitches.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
    If these pitches were so flat the ball wouldn't be doing so much. I am willing to bet the pitches NZ produced for SA last year were flatter than this. They certainly couldn't make the ball do so much in that series.
    Southee is a swing bowler. The methods of his wicket-taking in recent times have been through the air, not off the seam. In the latest Test, we scored 412 before Southee took his 5-for. In India, prior to his seven-for, we managed 360 odd and runs weren't that hard to come by. So I'd challenge you to belittle his achievements by saying they were on green seamers. Colombo in particular was a road. Not a Perth road, but a road.

    He's a completely different bowler than the one that played SA last summer. Sure, he'll find bigger tests in all meanings of the word over the next six months but those who have watched his career closely can see that he is up to it, and that his form over the last six months suggest he is a genuine world-class bowler.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNZ View Post
    Southee is a swing bowler. The methods of his wicket-taking in recent times have been through the air, not off the seam. In the latest Test, we scored 412 before Southee took his 5-for. In India, prior to his seven-for, we managed 360 odd and runs weren't that hard to come by. So I'd challenge you to belittle his achievements by saying they were on green seamers. Colombo in particular was a road. Not a Perth road, but a road.

    He's a completely different bowler than the one that played SA last summer. Sure, he'll find bigger tests in all meanings of the word over the next six months but those who have watched his career closely can see that he is up to it, and that his form over the last six months suggest he is a genuine world-class bowler.
    I am not saying they were green seamers at all. All I said was these weren't as flat of a pitch as its being made out to be. That doesn't mean I'm saying they were easy conditions for bowling though.

    Colombo wasn't a road. In the game you played against SA in Dunedin last year in which Southee was crap you got 273 and 137/2 against Steyn and co. earlier this year. In fact the only reason you didn't get to 300+ in the first dig was because your batsmen failed to convert their starts and gave it away which is not uncommon for NZ. Anyways, I would certainly consider that equally and if not more hard than scoring 400 once against SL where your main bowler is Herath.

    If you want to see a genuine road look at Adelaide.
    Last edited by Inferno; 02-12-2012 at 08:43 PM.

  8. #23
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
    I am not saying they were green seamers at all. All I said was these weren't as flat of a pitch as its being made out to be. That doesn't mean I'm saying they were easy conditions for bowling though.

    Colombo wasn't a road. In the game you played against SA in Dunedin last year in which Southee was crap you got 273 and 137/2 against Steyn and co. earlier this year. In fact the only reason you didn't get to 300+ in the first dig was because your batsmen failed to convert their starts and gave it away which is not uncommon for NZ. Anyways, I would certainly consider that equally and if not more hard than scoring 400 once against SL where your main bowler is Herath.

    If you want to see a genuine road look at Adelaide.
    Colombo was very flat. You only had to look at how difficult wicket taking was after the first 20 odd overs, to realise that. As soon as the shine wore off, wicket taking became extremely difficult for both teams, even against lower order batting (Randiv batted for nearly 3 hours on day 3 without difficulty, but looked utterly clueless once the new ball was taken). The bounce was modest and predictable, and there was very little sideways movement on offer. It was a definite road, though I agree the tracks at Adelaide and Perth (at least from day 2 onwards) were even better for batting.
    Last edited by Bahnz; 02-12-2012 at 09:58 PM.

  9. #24
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    Colombo was a complete road. You must have been watching a different match.

    Anyway, how else do you think we scored 400?
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  10. #25
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Southee's record since the SRL series

    47 wickets at 24.68 apiece, with a strike rate of 52.50 and an economy rate of 2.81. Yup I'd say he's arrived. The next question is how good will he become.

    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    yeah but that period just coincides perfectly for Southee, doesn't it? I mean, it gives him the SL series in which he averaged 13 or something ridiculous, and probably cuts off one or two of Steyn and Philander's more exceptional performances.
    I don't think you can go much earlier than that though, because he was just a completely different bowler before he turned up for the WI series. His arm action was low and slingy, his control was poor, he wasn't generating swing - all things that categorised the 2009-2011 phase of his career. And 20 months is a decent period of time to allow for peaks and troughs in form.
    Last edited by Bahnz; 18-02-2014 at 10:20 PM.

  11. #26
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    That's just being too clever by half though, just happening to pick a period that works perfectly for this bowler and cuts out a bunch of really good performances for the competitors. You can base it on cricketing logic, but then you have to apply that consistently and doing that I, personally, don't think you can make an argument that Southee is really all that close to Philander/Steyn/Harris at all and I'd still put Broad ahead. Broad is an odd case because he is a bit of a wrecking ball, but for since 2011 he's been a surprisingly consistent wrecking ball when fit.
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    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    That's just being too clever by half though, just happening to pick a period that works perfectly for this bowler and cuts out a bunch of really good performances for the competitors. You can base it on cricketing logic, but then you have to apply that consistently and doing that I, personally, don't think you can make an argument that Southee is really all that close to Philander/Steyn/Harris at all and I'd still put Broad ahead. Broad is an odd case because he is a bit of a wrecking ball, but for since 2011 he's been a surprisingly consistent wrecking ball when fit.
    yeah that's what I think, except I would be putting him ahead of Broad.

  13. #28
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Yeah it's something you could argue, but I just think Broad adds a bit more to the attack and doesn't lose much by comparison in the areas where Southee has the edge.

    Plus, having a bowler who can repeatedly and single-handedly win you a Test match is an incredible asset.

  14. #29
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Broad is an odd case because he is a bit of a wrecking ball, but for since 2011 he's been a surprisingly consistent wrecking ball when fit.


    That's just being too clever by half though, just happening to pick a period that works perfectly for this bowler and cuts out a bunch of really good performances for the competitors. You can base it on cricketing logic, but then you have to apply that consistently and doing that I, personally, don't think you can make an argument that Southee is really all that close to Philander/Steyn/Harris at all and I'd still put Broad ahead.
    Why not though? Southee produces big swing, with wonderful control. He's got a well disguised off-cutter, a surprisingly sharp bouncer and a fantastic cricket brain. I've already conceeded that his old ball bowling is not in the class of Steyn/Harris, but otherwise he's a wonderful bowler. He's produced a string of exceptional performances against several strong batting lineups. He's certainly not a green track bully. Barring the Lord's test and the pre-Christmas Basin test, he's bowled almost exclusively on absolute belters. And while Boult is an excellent bowler, he doesn't provide as strong or as consistent support to Southee as Philander does for Steyn or Johnson does for Harris.
    Last edited by Bahnz; 18-02-2014 at 10:45 PM.

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    International Captain Ruckus's Avatar
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    gonna have nightmares tonight...
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