Pick your NZ bowlers/all-rounders for SA

[Kippax]

A 'what you'd do' poll for a 15-man squad, first Test starting January 2.

Kippax has left you to make four or five selections. We'll assume Ryder is unavailable, Vettori is available.

If you want Franklin or Cachopa but ideally not bowling a ball, you give them a pick here.

Latest Milne, Martin, Gillespie, Wagner - YouTube

Latest Mitch - YouTube

Carl Cachopa vs. Northern Districts - YouTube

Carl Cachopa vs. Short Stuff - YouTube

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Wagner gets it just for those appeals. Around the wicket, strikes the batsman a foot outside the line...

 

[hendrix]

Martin still getting the most movement of the lot.

I'd take him and Gillespie. Tough to leave out Milne, but he has plenty of time.

I'd like to try out Neesham as well.

11 playing:
1. Guptill
2. McCullum
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Flynn
6. Brownlie
7. van Wyk (ideally Young but the selectors are idiots)
8. Bracewell
9. Southee
10. Patel
11. Boult

reserves:
Vettori
Martin
Gillespie
Neesham

It would be very unfair to pick Vettori over Patel, but that is likely what will happen.

 

[Blain]

How is it hard to go Vettori over Patel? I know he has been bowling well, but hasn't produced many wickets on the helpful pitches in India and SL. Vettori isn't the most effective bowler anymore, but he can stil bowl 30 overs and have figures of 80/1. Plus he strengthens the batting line, which looks piss weak without him.

Guptill (No one else atm..)
B Mac
Williamson
Taylor
Flynn
Brownlie (due to his liking of pace)
Watling + (Might not be quite as good keeping as KVW, but batting x10 and form)
Vettori
Bracewell
Southee
Boult

Franko
Patel
Milne/Gillespie/Wagner/Martin.. All have cases to go. I think it will be Marto/Gillespie in the end.
KVW/DDB


Ideally Cachopa would go at 6, but his short stuff isnt great, not the best idea to play him there with Steyn and Morkel. When is the side going to be announced?

 

[hendrix]

How is it hard to go Vettori over Patel? I know he has been bowling well, but hasn't produced many wickets on the helpful pitches in India and SL..

He got a 4 for in India I believe. He bowled very well to Pujara. His figures might not suggest it, but he has been threatening at times.

The pitches have not really been particularly helpful. Ashwin and Ojha picked up wickets because NZ are awful players of spin. Herath has been great but has also picked up a number of wickets simply because SL's pace bowlers have failed to take any.

Patel's been bowling to some of the best players of spin, usually coming on way after a partnership has become settled and the scoring has become easy.

He's been economical, and has proven that he can break the odd partnership.

Vettori isn't the most effective bowler anymore, but he can stil bowl 30 overs and have figures of 80/1

That's the thing. i don't want him bowling 30 overs. I want him to only come on when there is absolutely no swing or reverse swing. I want the ball to be in Southee, Boult and Bracewell's hands most of the time.

I don't want Ross to feel the pressure to give the ball to the senior player.

Plus he strengthens the batting line, which looks piss weak without him.

His batting has been piss weak in recent times.

 

[Mike5181]

Main problem areas:

Who bats number six?
Do we replace Van Wyk, and if so with who?
If Southee, Boult, and Bracewell are the current seamers who else do we take in our 15-man squad out of Martin, Gillespie, Wagner, and Milne?
Has Cachopa pushed his way into the squad considering Ryder's not available?
Do we take a second keeper?

1.Martin Guptill
2.Brendon McCullum
3.Kane Williamson
4.Ross Taylor (c)
5.Daniel Flynn
6.Dean Brownlie
7.BJ Watling +
8.Doug Bracewell
9.Tim Southee
10.Jeetan Patel
11.Trent Boult

Reserves:
12.Daniel Vettori
13.Mark Gillespie/Neil Wagner (If Gillespie's in form, pick him)
14.Adam Milne
15.Carl Cachopa (de Boorder if we take a second keeper)

We won't be needing Astle with Patel/Vettori, Nicol's not good enough, Van Wyk had a decent run and failed, ditto for Franklin. Martin's 38 in a week or two, it's time to move on. If the conditions don't suit spinners, play Gillespie if he's test ready, otherwise play Milne.

 

[BackFootPunch]

I went Jeets, Wagner, Milne, Cachopa and Wells.

My ideal starting XI for the first test in SA would be this:

McCullum
Guptill
Williamson
Taylor (c)
Flynn
Cachopa
Watling (+)
Bracewell
Southee
Patel
Boult

Reserves would be Milne, Wagner, Wells and Franklin.

May seem to have too many all-rounders there but Wells would be in the squad for experience mostly and I genuinely believe Franklin is the next best bat not in my team already.

 

[NasserFan207]

I think you guys need to be a little realistic. Even if Vettori does deserve to be dropped in favour of Patel, he won't be. Vettori is a kiwi legend with an amazing record and a mass of international experience. Patel has been ok but he hasn't done enough to kick him out, plus he's no spring chicken so doesn't even have that in his favour.

Vettori is still the man and nothing recently has decidedly changed that.

 

[Blain]

He got a 4 for in India I believe. He bowled very well to Pujara. His figures might not suggest it, but he has been threatening at times.

The pitches have not really been particularly helpful. Ashwin and Ojha picked up wickets because NZ are awful players of spin. Herath has been great but has also picked up a number of wickets simply because SL's pace bowlers have failed to take any.

Patel's been bowling to some of the best players of spin, usually coming on way after a partnership has become settled and the scoring has become easy.

He's been economical, and has proven that he can break the odd partnership.



That's the thing. i don't want him bowling 30 overs. I want him to only come on when there is absolutely no swing or reverse swing. I want the ball to be in Southee, Boult and Bracewell's hands most of the time.

I don't want Ross to feel the pressure to give the ball to the senior player.



His batting has been piss weak in recent times.

I see all of your points, but I believe Vettori offers more on and off the park.

In regards to the pitches not being helpful, that's untrue. If you can get as much spin off a pitch like the spinners having been getting, that is going to encourage the slower bowlers and help produce wickets.

I can't see the point about Ross thinking he needs to give the ball to Vettori. This isn't first 11 cricket, you would hope that sort of stuff doesnt go on.

And you cant disregard Vettori's test batting record because of a couple average tests. Hopefully he can play some Plunket Shield and get some form going, he has had a long time out of the game and will need to prove fitness and ability.

Our personal thoughts aside, let's be honest, if he is fit he will be in the side.

 

[hendrix]

Our personal thoughts aside, let's be honest, if he is fit he will be in the side.

This is certainly true.

 

[Flem274*]

I'm going to wait until January before finalising my wanted team. We still have a few FC games to get a look at Vettori's form, see if Cachopa continues his run, if Milne backs up the other day and if Gillespie finds murder mode. Jeets, Astle and Vettori face off will be good as well.

Who knows, maybe Rutherford will smash a ton against Southee, Boult, Arnel, Aldridge. Failing against Milne, Mathieson, Trego, Lamb, KNB and Cachopa is a black mark against his name though.

For now, the below are my absolute locks

1.
2.
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Flynn
6.
7.
8.
9. Bracewell
10. Southee
11. Boult

I have no idea who the best gloveman is, but they should get the gloves. If it is Watling, cool, he bats 7. If it's Derek, he gets them and Watling can scrap for number six with Brownlie. If Ryder wants to make a return he bats five with Flynn at six. I'm not sure who I think the best spinner is yet but I'm leaning towards Jeets, but if the pitches suit we should boost it with four quicks and be macho. Realistically McCullum and Guppers are locks but you never know. They had a couple of failures and if someone absolutely smashes CD or ND they will at least be considered I feel (before the selectors go with Baz and Guppers obv). The selectors might also decide Watling should open again or continue to back Nicol.

If I were to make a team for the first test in South Africa then conservatively I would go with:

McCullum
Guptill
Williamson
Taylor
Flynn
Brownlie/Vettori
Watling (wk)
Bracewell
Southee
Patel
Boult

Gillespie
Wagner
Cachopa
Brownlie/Vettori

But I really don't think we know enough at this stage to make concrete decisions.

The two most important tasks on our hands after the current test is won or drawn are to decide who the best pure keeper is and sort out who we want opening and then work with them 24/7 from now until the start of the test (rest them from ODIs if they are ODI players) so we can prevent this 10/2 rubbish that happens every single test. It is the single most important factor in why we can't post big totals and ultimately lose test matches. Williamson and Taylor are not openers and they can't score hundreds every game, especially under the enormous pressure the openers put them under every single innings. If Williamson and Taylor get out early, which will and does happen, 5 and 6 are under even more pressure. It starts at the top and I don't care if we send in a couple of tailend nuffies with awesome blocks if that is what it takes to be at least 100/2 when Taylor and Williamson come to the wicket. Even 50/2 would be a welcome change, that's how bad it is.

 

[Inferno]

For now, the below are my absolute locks

1.
2.
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Flynn
6.
7.
8.
9. Bracewell
10. Southee
11. Boult

Kind of harsh on McCullum there not to have on on the first choice XI aren't you? NZ players having a few bad series is nothing new. Guptil I understand but McCullum has been one of the team's more consistent performers career wise.

 

[Bahnz]

Love that Martin's got the most votes for inclusion, even though I don't think anyone here would actually include him in the starting xi.

EDIT: Jeets jumping ahead now.

 

[Flem274*]

Kind of harsh on McCullum there not to have on on the first choice XI aren't you? NZ players having a few bad series is nothing new. Guptil I understand but McCullum has been one of the team's more consistent performers career wise.

I'm still furious at him for his shot to get out in the first test so I'm passive aggressively hinting at dropping him.

When was his last test ton anyway.

 

[hendrix]

Surprised not many others want to give Neesham a shot.

We need a good allrounder.

 

[Blain]

Neesham needs to be more consistant to push for selection. Has got a good hundred, but not alot else. Get that average to 35 with the bat and he will be close. With the ball he seems solid, but would only get a Franklin role with bowling atm.

 

[hendrix]

He looked a lot better than Franklin when I saw him on TV, but that was only a t20 admittedly.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

I see all of your points, but I believe Vettori offers more on and off the park.

In regards to the pitches not being helpful, that's untrue. If you can get as much spin off a pitch like the spinners having been getting, that is going to encourage the slower bowlers and help produce wickets.

I can't see the point about Ross thinking he needs to give the ball to Vettori. This isn't first 11 cricket, you would hope that sort of stuff doesnt go on.

And you cant disregard Vettori's test batting record because of a couple average tests. Hopefully he can play some Plunket Shield and get some form going, he has had a long time out of the game and will need to prove fitness and ability.

Our personal thoughts aside, let's be honest, if he is fit he will be in the side.

It sounds stupid, but I think Vettori is a symbol for the mediocrity of the last generation and it would be for the benefit of all for him to stay out of the frame. He himself may have been better than mediocre, but it just feels like having him in the team would seriously drain this youthful energy we've built up in recent times away. If his batting is exceptional in domestics then he can maybe bat in the top six, but that should be the only possible condition of his return.

But, like everyone's said already, he's not going anywhere though so this is just wishful thinking. He's going to take buckets of wickets in the shield and reclaim his old number 8 spot as usual.

 

[cnerd123]

A bowling attack for South Africa doesn't really need depth in spin bowling. The spinner's going to play a holding role anyways, so Vettori is great for that.

A pace attack is a must. Boult and Southee are shoe-ins after their recent performances, and Bracewell is good too. So really, you need another 2-3 quicks, and one spinner just incase.

I'd be tempted to go with Astle for the spinner slot. It would be a good learning experience for him, and it's very unlikely he'd be needed to play anyways. Just use him in the warmups and the nets, let him gain some exposure to South African conditions. Plus he'd gain a lot from being around Vettori and watching him bowl.

Then come the backup seamers...surely Arnel, Wagner and Milne are the front-runners here? And if you're looking for experience, Martin is a must.

Franklin should be a certain pick too, IMO. Not many medium-pace bowling allrounders around. If the ball swings, Franklin could be useful, and he's been batting quite well in recent times too.

 

[hendrix]

^I disagree with 90% of what you said there...

I don't see why you'd pick Arnel ever tbh.

I quite like Franklin but I can't see a spot for him.