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Thread: *Official* Pak In NZ Thread

  1. #31
    Tim
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    Good match in progress between Auckland & Pakistan.
    Disappointing to see McIntosh only get 32, but Rob Nicol is currently 56* with six 4's & three 6's to his name.

  2. #32
    Tim
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    damn, just as I said that Nicol was out for 56...oh well a decent score from him.

  3. #33
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    So, Anzac you would rather have Marshall (who has not shown an ability to bat for a long period of time) over Chris Cairns (4 Test centuries) in terms of batting?

    Good squad from Bracewell. Jones is a solid option at the top for us if Fleming is injured. McIntosh should have another first-class season with a view to the England tour.

    Wiseman was there as a second spinning option. No problems with that as he is a healthy addition to the squad. Always gives you another option.

    Nicol was out for 60 Tim mate. Good innings.

  4. #34
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    Jones was always going to be picked ahead of McIntosh even though McIntosh has got a better average.

    Jones has been taken to Sri Lanka & India and has yet to play a test so in fairness he should still be picked ahead of McIntosh.


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    Did you go to the Tour match Tim?

  6. #36
    Tim
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    Nah i've got Summer School at Uni this week so I can't get there..I wanted to go yesterday but I was out on a boat all day.
    Bit frustrating because its free entry.

    i don't think Auckland are playing at my home ground Colin Maiden Park either this season so I might try and get out to Eden Park sometime in the next couple of months to see Auckland play.

  7. #37
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    Yeah. The atmosphere was tremendous the other day.

  8. #38
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    Originally posted by jamesryfler
    India's pace attack may not be great but on those pitches last year, NZ's batsmen didn't exactly cover themselves with glory against India's "crap" attack as you so eloquently put it.

    And let's face it, barring Bond, the rest of NZ's seam attack still have to prove they can take wickets on a consistent basis outside New Zealand.

    Tiffey averages something like 45 outside NZ doesn't he ?

    crap as in didn't take full advantage of the conditions ie not having the skills or experience to do so - something the Pakistani quicks will not lack for

    the rest of your post supports my comments as to why Pakistan should not get slaughtered in NZ......


  9. #39
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    Originally posted by jamesryfler
    sorry --- I'll try again, Darryl Tuffey



  10. #40
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    Originally posted by THE MINGSTER
    So, Anzac you would rather have Marshall (who has not shown an ability to bat for a long period of time) over Chris Cairns (4 Test centuries) in terms of batting?

    Good squad from Bracewell. Jones is a solid option at the top for us if Fleming is injured. McIntosh should have another first-class season with a view to the England tour.

    Wiseman was there as a second spinning option. No problems with that as he is a healthy addition to the squad. Always gives you another option.

    Nicol was out for 60 Tim mate. Good innings.


    on current form yes, particularly when you are replacing a form batsman from the last Test series!!!!!!

    Cairns has no form with bat or ball and has not had for some time IMO, let alone produced consistant results. Against this Pakistani attack Marshall batted thru the ODI innings for 2 NOs from No4 - so he has spent more time at the crease than Cairns, including Cairns' appearances for Canterbury v Wellington (in each innings he did not make / face double figures, while in his 2nd innings bowling he took 1 for 55 off 8!!!!).

    In his only Test appearance to date Marshall finished 40no because he ran out of partners. IMO it would appear that he is able to raise his game several levels for the international stage - if this is so & he remains consistant at it then who cares what his domestic form is like?????

    I am a big big fan of Cairns and rate him as one of the top allrounders in the current game when he is in form. But I can not justify / agree with his selection in this instance. I hope like hell for him as much as for NZ that he has a blinder, as I see Bracewell has confirmed that he will bat at 6 and be the 4th seamer ahead of Styris!

    True Jones is solid & consistancy would dictate that he continue as batting cover in the squad. However as I said b4 I think his style of play as a defensive opener limits his usability to cover anything but the opening position - if Macca was injured I'd hardly think Jones could fulfill the same role, which lead to my opinion that they would need to force Vincent down the order under those sort of circumstances, which would further undermine his confidence in retaining his spot in the squad.

    McIntosh has just turned 24 yrs old & is the same age or older than when several current test players made their debuts (Vincent, Fleming, Macca, Cairns, Oram, Vettori, Tuffey, Butler), let alone the ODI side which is even more of a cauldron & less forgiving. He has been the dominant batsman on the domestic calendar with a good average and conversion rate. Apart from the sporadic 'A' team appearances I can not think of any more he needs to prove to gain selection. Furthermore he is IMO a better player to provide batting cover as he has form batting anywhere in the top 3.

    My preference is to strike while the iron is hot, rather than spend too much time waiting to see if they are consistant over the course of several seasons. I think this is why we see so many youngsters debuting from the subcontinent, as they seem to prefer to find their true colours at the highest level when they are in form and have confidence. However I am not advocating he immediately plays in the starting lineup, just that he has done enough to deserve inclusion in the squad at least.

    I've also read that Wiseman was included because spinners have been wicket takers in the Hamilton strip so far this season. Well fair enough then, esp after his 5 for in 1st innings of the Wellington / Canterbury drawn game.

    I'd still prefer to have seen a different type of option such as swing or left arm seam, as IMO seam is NZ's bowling 'strength' rather than spin - but that's my preference. EG Franklin took 5 wickets in the same match, and his previous Tests were in the last home series v Pakistan & has 7 wickets at an average of 21. Wilson has 2x5 wicket bags in 2 matches, which is as good as any bowler did all last season. I just think that there are other options available other than the tried & true all the time.


  11. #41
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    What the hell you on huh?

    "on current form yes, particularly when you are replacing a form batsman from the last Test series!!!!!!"
    What Test series? Marshall has not gotten a century in 69 first class innings IN NZ CONDITIONS. Enough said.

    "In his only Test appearance to date Marshall finished 40no because he ran out of partners. IMO it would appear that he is able to raise his game several levels for the international stage - if this is so & he remains consistant at it then who cares what his domestic form is like?????"
    If he is so good as you put it, why hasn't he continued that 40* form to now? He has done nothing in the 2 to 3 years since that South African tour.

    "True Jones is solid & consistancy would dictate that he continue as batting cover in the squad. However as I said b4 I think his style of play as a defensive opener limits his usability to cover anything but the opening position - if Macca was injured I'd hardly think Jones could fulfill the same role, which lead to my opinion that they would need to force Vincent down the order under those sort of circumstances, which would further undermine his confidence in retaining his spot in the squad."
    Jones can bat anywhere in the top 4. I have seen him bat at 4 and he did well.

    If McMillan was injured before a Test match, wouldn't that jst call up another player? Or did you not think of that?

    They don't need to force Vincent down the order. Jones at 3 and Fleming at his usual at 4 and everyone down one. Simple isn't it?

    "McIntosh has just turned 24 yrs old & is the same age or older than when several current test players made their debuts (Vincent, Fleming, Macca, Cairns, Oram, Vettori, Tuffey, Butler), let alone the ODI side which is even more of a cauldron & less forgiving. He has been the dominant batsman on the domestic calendar with a good average and conversion rate. Apart from the sporadic 'A' team appearances I can not think of any more he needs to prove to gain selection. Furthermore he is IMO a better player to provide batting cover as he has form batting anywhere in the top 3."
    If he was named in the squad, he wouldn't start anyway. Wouldn't it be better for him to pile on the runs? It would just stop his form.

    He isn't a 3. This is the first time he has batted there. He is an opener. Wow, so you have 'great batting cover ability' if you can cover two positions? Wahey....

    "My preference is to strike while the iron is hot, rather than spend too much time waiting to see if they are consistant over the course of several seasons. I think this is why we see so many youngsters debuting from the subcontinent, as they seem to prefer to find their true colours at the highest level when they are in form and have confidence. However I am not advocating he immediately plays in the starting lineup, just that he has done enough to deserve inclusion in the squad at least."
    That's a very dumb thing to say. So if you have one crash hot season you should play them straight away?

    Look at the Aussies, Katich, Love have been consistent over a number of seasons before they have been selected. Jones has been very consistent over the last 3 years. He deserves it, Bracewell's words on him were very good.

    "I'd still prefer to have seen a different type of option such as swing or left arm seam, as IMO seam is NZ's bowling 'strength' rather than spin - but that's my preference. EG Franklin took 5 wickets in the same match, and his previous Tests were in the last home series v Pakistan & has 7 wickets at an average of 21. Wilson has 2x5 wicket bags in 2 matches, which is as good as any bowler did all last season. I just think that there are other options available other than the tried & true all the time."
    What do you mean tried and true? Tuffey has been the best for us in Tests over the last 18 months and has to be there. Oram has done nothing wrong. Butler was brilliant for us in Mohali.

    To be selected they have to be consistent, and that is what Bracewell is trying to enforce into this new culture.

    And by the way, Franklin is the ****.
    Last edited by THE MINGSTER; 15-12-2003 at 08:45 PM.

  12. #42
    Tim
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    Fulton looks bloody good but I agree that he's got a fair way to go before he can crack the NZ team.

    None of the current NZ batsmen really deserve to be dropped because they've all scored quite a decent amount of runs in the last year or so.

    Lou Vincent is perhaps the only batsman who could lose his place during the NZ summer.

  13. #43
    Tim
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    Marshall batted very well for that 40* in South Africa..but instead of returning and scoring more runs at domestic level, he actually went downhill. So the selectors cannot be blamed for leaving him out of the picture for so long.

    I read Marshall saying he feels more comfortable at international level..thats great, but the selectors also need to see some performances at FC level so they can judge form.

  14. #44
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    Originally posted by THE MINGSTER
    What the hell you on huh?



    What Test series? Marshall has not gotten a century in 69 first class innings IN NZ CONDITIONS. Enough said.



    If he is so good as you put it, why hasn't he continued that 40* form to now? He has done nothing in the 2 to 3 years since that South African tour.



    Jones can bat anywhere in the top 4. I have seen him bat at 4 and he did well.

    If McMillan was injured before a Test match, wouldn't that jst call up another player? Or did you not think of that?

    They don't need to force Vincent down the order. Jones at 3 and Fleming at his usual at 4 and everyone down one. Simple isn't it?



    If he was named in the squad, he wouldn't start anyway. Wouldn't it be better for him to pile on the runs? It would just stop his form.

    He isn't a 3. This is the first time he has batted there. He is an opener. Wow, so you have 'great batting cover ability' if you can cover two positions? Wahey....



    That's a very dumb thing to say. So if you have one crash hot season you should play them straight away?

    Look at the Aussies, Katich, Love have been consistent over a number of seasons before they have been selected. Jones has been very consistent over the last 3 years. He deserves it, Bracewell's words on him were very good.



    What do you mean tried and true? Tuffey has been the best for us in Tests over the last 18 months and has to be there. Oram has done nothing wrong. Butler was brilliant for us in Mohali.

    To be selected they have to be consistent, and that is what Bracewell is trying to enforce into this new culture.

    And by the way, Franklin is the ****.

    seems I may have struck a nerve and furthermore I don't like the condescending & personal tone of your response! I would thank you to keep such comments to yourself in future - or not to respond at all if you can not refrain from doing so in what is basically a difference of selection ideologies regarding 2 players / positions re Jones & Cairns....... :!(

    however be that as it may........


    I was referring to Cairns as replacing Astle from the Test series in India, as this is effectively the only change to the squad........

    I recognise that Marshall's domestic form has not been spectacular since RSA, however I am saying that regardless of that he was selected for the ODI series in Pakistan where he succeeded & as such is the current form batsman against this team. Since he has not played any further domestic cricket as they have only just returned from Pakistan, so that arguement is somewhat redundant. I was further highlighting that while limited, he is a known quantity at International level so far as his temperament etc are concerned - hence my preference for him as opposed to Jones & McIntosh..........

    So Jones can bat in the top 4 - what I was questioning was his style of play which appears to be fairly defensive from other comments I have read - and I question the roles he could play as batting cover - hence the reference to moving Vincent who has a more 'user friendly' style & greater experience batting with these players..........

    I was using McMillan as an example as he is the lowest specialist batsman in the lineup, but why would they call in another player - isn't that what batting cover is meant to do in a squad & wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the original selection???????????

    When was the last time Fleming batted at 4 in Tests???????? He's been at no3 for as long as I can remember so how can 4 be his usual spot when Astle bats there in Tests?????

    IMO part of stepping up to International level is being blooded into the squad set up, touring etc, once his credentials as a batsman are established so far as selection goes. This then becomes as important as form etc, particularly on Away Tours (although I do realise that this series is at Home, as is the next one)....

    Although this may be his 1st season not as an opener, from what I have read I was primarily referring to his style of play which does not seem to be as defensive as Jones so far as application to different roles as batting cover.........

    37 matches is a bit more than 1 season - started in 98/99 so that makes it approaching 5 or more. Last year may have been his most productive but there have been signs of continuous improvement from what I have read........

    Furthermore at no time did I say to play them after 1 crash hot season - I said I believed they needed to be introduced sooner rather than later while they were in form, as opposed to waiting for several seasons to evaluate them. Vettori made his intro with very little F/C, as did Lee for OZ, & the sub continent has a habit of this.......

    Fine for the Aussies - they have had a very settled batting lineup with consistant form. However they also introduce players early to the International arena to see how they go and give them some experience, particularly in ODIs. They develop a pool of players that they can draw upon for either form of the game whether they require batsmen or bowlers.

    Bracewell's comments are good, but apart from perhaps inducing warm fuzzys they ultimately mean nothing when push comes to shove. Team & selection loyalty is all well & good to a certain point, but such policy has not inspired a lot of confidence with previous squad selections, particularly ODIs. Eg if McIntosh / Nichol had scored a dominating double ton against the Pakistanis, then I'm sure they would have made room for him in the squad, probably at Jones' expence.

    I agree with your summation regarding Tuffey, Oram & Butler - however I was referring to the selectors repeatedly falling back to Wiseman as the other spinning option, and how they are intent to rush Cairns back into either squad as soon as he looks fit regardless of form.

    Similarly I have previously expanded that train of thought in other threads regarding the batting cover, and how the likes of Sinclair & Horne were the almost perpetual cover selections until Jones went to SRL. Part of my ongoing criticism of the selectors has been that NZ has a very thin pool of resources so far as experience / exposure goes at international level, particularly where batsman are concerned. This is aligned to my criticism of their selecting only 4 specialist batsmen in ODI teams.

    Cairns' selection on his current form defeats your arguement regarding Bracewell enforcing consistency.........

    Oh give it a break - he's 23 & with the ball got a F/C average of 26, SR of 52 & economy rate of under 3. He made his Test debut as a 20 yr old V Pakistan last time they were here & his figures are better than his F/C stats. So he 'failed' in the VB series in a type of game he is not best suited for - so what that makes him no worse than a player like Richardson who is not suited to ODIs. I also think it is a bit soon to be writing off someone who is only 23!!!!!!

    :ticking:

  15. #45
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    Originally posted by anzac
    When was the last time Fleming batted at 4 in Tests???????? He's been at no3 for as long as I can remember so how can 4 be his usual spot when Astle bats there in Tests?????
    Fleming has batted at 4 in Tests 45 times and at 3 25 times.

    Astle usually bats at 5 and McMillan 6. That is where he got his quick fire double century at. Astle played at 5 43 times and at 4 only 16 times.

    http://www.cricmania.com/DB/stats.ph...tephen+Fleming

    http://www.cricmania.com/DB/stats.ph...e=Nathan+Astle

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