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Thread: West Indies ATG Team- Open Voting

  1. #76
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    The change in a batsman's psyche (at international level) since helmets have become common has been massive. Guys like McCosker, going out to face Holding, Garner and Roberts without a helmet, were under serious threat of death. The same applies to Bradman etc in bodyline series. Nowadays, batsmen can take a lot more liberties than they did prior to the 1980s, since the very real threat of death while batting has been (mostly) removed from cricket.

    A guy like Langer, who seemed to get hit flush in the helmet a couple of times each series, would have been killed in the 70s.

    Holding bowling to Brian Close on the "Fire in Babylon" DVD (after Greig made his "grovel" comment) is some of the most calculated and chilling cricket footage. FMD that looks quick, and flat out frightening.
    Marshall and Ambrose played all of their careers in the helmet era while half of Holding's career was after WSC as well, they all were still feared and made no less effective after helmets were common place.

    Plus Marshall aimed for the ribs and throat anyway
    1st XI
    Hutton | Hobbs | Bradman* | Richards^ | Tendulkar | Sobers5^ | Gilchrist+ | Khan3 | Marshall1 | Warne4^ | McGrath2
    2nd XI
    Sutcliffe | Gavaskar* | Headley | Chappell^ | Lara^ | Kallis5^ | Knott+ | Hadlee3 | Ambrose2 | Lillee1 | Muralitharan4
    3rd XI
    Greenidge | Richards^ | Ponting^ | Pollock | Hammond^ | Worrell5* | Waite+ | Akram3 | Steyn1 | Holding2 | O'Reilly4
    4th XI
    Morris | Simpson^ | Sangakkara | Weekes^ | Border*^ | Walcott+ | Faulkner5 | Laker4 | Trueman1 | Garner3 | Donald2

  2. #77
    International Regular Monk's Avatar
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    Just posting this cos I love it....

    Fire in Babylon - Michael Holding vs Brian Close - YouTube

    Close must've been a tough bastard.

    And a bit of robelinda's fine work...

    Malcolm Marshall tribute video - GREATEST FAST BOWLER - YouTube

  3. #78
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Ambrose
    Marshall
    Gibbs
    Garner
    Oh for a strong arm and a walking stick

  4. #79
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Holding on-the-other-hand, well he was really fast.
    Who cares if he was faster? Garner was better.

    Garner also preferred to bowl into the wind which means he's a happy second opening bowler or first change.


  5. #80
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Who cares if he was faster? Garner was better.

    Garner also preferred to bowl into the wind which means he's a happy second opening bowler or first change.
    Well, Holding wasn't called 'Whispering Death' for bowling half volleys and handing out ham sandwiches,

    Fast = Death
    Last edited by watson; 15-11-2012 at 02:09 AM.
    PRE WWI
    Grace-Trumper-Hill-Taylor-Ranjitsinhji-Faulkner-Noble-Lilley-Turner-Richardson-Barnes
    PRE WWII
    Hobbs-Sutcliffe-Bradman-Hammond-Headley-Macartney-Ames-Gregory-Larwood-O'Reilly-Grimmett
    POST WWII
    Hutton-Simpson-Kanhai-Pollock-Harvey-Sobers-Waite-Benaud-Davidson-Lindwall-Trueman
    PACKER ERA
    Gavaskar-Greenidge-Richards-Chappell-Lloyd-Botham-Imran-Knott-Lillee-Holding-Underwood
    MODERN ERA
    Hayden-Langer-Ponting-Tendulkar-Lara-Kallis-Gilchrist-Marshall-Warne-Ambrose-McGrath

  6. #81
    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    He was also a very skilled bowler who performed well the world over even in the most benign conditions as evidenced by his perfornances in India in '83 and his famous 14 wicket performance.
    But still, speed does kill and until '83/ '84 he was the fastest bowler in the world (until supplented by Marshall) and one of the fastest ever.
    Last edited by kyear2; 15-11-2012 at 04:44 PM.

  7. #82
    International Regular Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    He was also a very skilled bowler who performed well the world over even in the most benign conditions as evidenced by his perfornances in India in '83 and his famous 14 wicket performance.
    But still, speed does kill and until '83/ '84 he was the fastest bowler in the world (until supplented by Marshall) and one of the fastest ever.
    Quite a few of the guys from the 70s are adamant that Holding was the quickest ever.

  8. #83
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    Marshall
    Garner
    Ambrose
    Holding

    Sobers can bowl spin.
    5-0

    RIP Craig Walsh (Craig) 1985-2012

    Proudly supporting the #2 cricketer of all time.

  9. #84
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgieb View Post
    Marshall
    Garner
    Ambrose
    Holding

    Sobers can bowl spin.
    Just out of interest - What percentage of wickets were obtained by spin bowling as opposed to bowling fast?

  10. #85
    U19 Captain Flametree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Just out of interest - What percentage of wickets were obtained by spin bowling as opposed to bowling fast?
    I don't know that anyone knows that.

    But he averaged 30.75 in innings when he opened the bowling, 34.5 when he bowled first change, and 36.5 when he bowled lower down the bowling order. Which suggests he was more effective bowling swing/seam, (though it's possible he changed modes halfway through innings and took more of his wickets with spin having initially started off bowling quick).

  11. #86
    International Captain kingkallis's Avatar
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    I am not comfortable going without a spinner and Sobers, Viv were 'NO' spinners.
    CricZo XI - Draft League

    Season 1 M Hayden, G Gooch, R Dravid, W Hammond, K Pietersen, G Sobers, R Marsh (wk), R Benaud (c), D Steyn, W Hall, N Adcock

    Season 2 J Hobbs, B Richards, D Boon, H Taylor, C Lloyd (c), A Stewart (wk), T Goddard, A Davidson, H Tayfield, C Ambrose, H Griffith

    Season 3 H Sutcliffe, M Hayden, I Chappell (c), G Pollock, A Faulkner, M Hussey, D Lindsay (wk), I Botham, A Kumble, M Marshall, D Lillee

  12. #87
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flametree View Post
    I don't know that anyone knows that.

    But he averaged 30.75 in innings when he opened the bowling, 34.5 when he bowled first change, and 36.5 when he bowled lower down the bowling order. Which suggests he was more effective bowling swing/seam, (though it's possible he changed modes halfway through innings and took more of his wickets with spin having initially started off bowling quick).
    If that's the case, and Gibbs is left out, then the attack is effectively and 5 man pace attack - which seems a bit excessive to me.

    However, I do have a feeling that Sobers took a rare 5fer against England bowling wrist- spin, but I can't recall the actual test.
    Last edited by watson; 16-11-2012 at 03:31 AM.

  13. #88
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    However, I do have a feeling that Sobers took a rare 5fer against England bowling wrist- spin, but I can't recall the actual test.
    Checking, Sobers took 3 five-fors against England. The first was his first ever five-for bowling brisk fast-medium. The second was this match a few years later where he hit a ton, took a five-for having apparently "adopted" the pace of his best quick Hall. In the second dig he bowled spin, taking three.

    The Wisden report doesn't say what he bowled in the third match, but given he opened the bowling in both innings it's safe to say he was being deployed at least primarily as a seamer.

    Really it does suggest that Sober's best bowling was his quick bowling, given that I went explicitly looking for a great feat of spin and found only more praise of his seamers.
    Last edited by Howe_zat; 16-11-2012 at 03:49 AM.

  14. #89
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    Checking, Sobers took 3 five-fors against England. The first was his first ever five-for bowling brisk fast-medium. The second was this match a few years later where he hit a ton, took a five-for having apparently "adopted" the pace of his best quick Hall. In the second dig he bowled spin, taking three.

    The Wisden report doesn't say what he bowled in the third match, but given he opened the bowling in both innings it's safe to say he was being deployed at least primarily as a seamer.

    Really it does suggest that Sober's best bowling was his quick bowling, given that I went explicitly looking for a great feat of spin and found only more praise of his seamers.
    Yeah, fare enough.

    So, essentially, Sobers will be the 4th or 5th pace bowler.
    Last edited by watson; 16-11-2012 at 04:12 AM.

  15. #90
    International Captain Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Yeah, fare enough.
    Since Sobers was essentially a pace bowler why do we feel the need to drop Gibbs?
    Because as good as Gibbs may have been, Garner was better. Much better.
    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    I can think of a list of Sydney Grade posters who would contribute a better average post than Bahnz.
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