NZ 1st test side - Page 2

THE MINGSTER · 09-12-2003, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim
I don't know if Oram will last long under Bracewell.

I think Bracewell may well tell Oram, either starting use his size to his advantage or go back to FC Cricket.
Oram should be able to belt alot of bowlers out of the park & technically he seems to be ok..but he goes into his shell & is too worried about playing the big shots.

Well Oram actually has the best bowling economy rates for the Pak series currently. I agree, I think he could get a few more km's in his bowling and he would be a real threat.

Oram can hit the big shots, but has been told he hold them back.

You have to say he hasn't had the perfect chances lately to really build an innings.

Tim · 09-12-2003, 01:09 AM

What good is Oram if he can't play some shots? I don't really think he knows how to build an innings with singles & a sprinkling of boundaries.

I agree, that he didn't get me chances in the ODI's because NZ were pretty much well out of the game when he came into bat..but he at least needed to show some stickability rather than just getting out tamely.

THE MINGSTER · 09-12-2003, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim
What good is Oram if he can't play some shots? I don't really think he knows how to build an innings with singles & a sprinkling of boundaries.

I agree, that he didn't get me chances in the ODI's because NZ were pretty much well out of the game when he came into bat..but he at least needed to show some stickability rather than just getting out tamely.

His recent 81 was the only chance he got to build an innings and he suceeded.

meatspx · 09-12-2003, 03:33 AM

I think some people on this forum have been bagging Oram unfairly. His batting can be extremely good, his only weakness is that he can play too defensively. If Bracewell can encourage him to have a more positive mindset then that problem will be solved, and anyway his defensive innings have helped us in the test matches against India last year.

I'm not sure about Wilson........Every man and his dog can get wickets in NZ FC. If Wilson is not another medium-fast bowler and actually has some pace (135km +), then he can do well in international cricket.

anzac · 09-12-2003, 06:44 AM

Here's how I see it at the moment....

Richardson
Vincent
Fleming
Styris
Marshall
McMillan
Oram
Hart
Vettori
Tuffey
Butler

Jones & McIntosh as batting cover, with Wilson & Adams as bowling cover.

Vincent's latter form in the Indian Tests was good and IMO he was subject to some unlucky decisions - even going into the TVS Cup. His current form in the domestic season gives the selectors no reason to drop him.

With Astle's spot open I would initially slot his replacement straight in to no5 - not high enough to have to build the innings, yet still have some batting left to come to build partnerships if they have to try and save the innings.

Marshall gets the nod ahead of Jones as Jones is more of a specialist opener in the same mould as Richardson. He also gets the nod ahead of McIntosh as Marshall has current international form against the same team (even if in ODIs), whereas McIntosh has yet to make his debut. Finally Marshall was originally selected for Test cricket & made 40no in RSA in his Test debut 3 years ago as a 20 yr old, against an attack as good as the Pakistani's.

Oram gets the 'allrounder' position to himself. He claims to be more of a batting allrounder so lets see him given the opportunity do it. He has big scores to his bat, including a ton in a warm up game on the Indian tour. Batting at 7 he has enough batting to follow to show his capabilities.

He needs to play his natural game which IMO is more aggressive than his role lower down the order, as he seems to go into his shell when required to play defensively. He is usually more comfortable against seam bowling and knows he does not need to score runs off Ahktar & Sami - just keep his wicket intact & take the odd single that the different fielding requirements will allow. He needs to use his height v the spinners to break up their length, then he can attack them off their line as they will not get the same levels of assistance as they did on the sub continent.

IMO his development into a genuine allrounder has been hampered to a degree by Cairns' continued on / off selections & reputation as 'the' allrounder in the team. Personally I think Oram has contributed more to the team with the ball, and about on a par with the bat in the last 18 months or so. If he does not make runs this series then he can just be considered for his bowling as the 3rd seamer in the side, and Styris & Astle will cover the 'allrounder' positions. Oram then takes his chances along with the likes of Butler, Wilson, Adams, Cairns etc when Bond returns.

Butler gets the nod to share the new ball based upon his display in the 2nd Test v India. He had real pace in the 1st innings, and more control when he slowed it down for the 2nd when bowling in the high 130s.

Wilson & Adams get the nod as bowling cover because they are the form bowlers at this stage of the season, and both can hold their own with the bat.

Cairns does not get a look because he has no form with the ball & Styris can provide a 5th bowling option as he did in India. Furthermore there are form specialist batsmen available as cover for Astle so his batting (which has not been a factor in Test cricket for some time) is not required. Lastly with most of the established team available Cairn's experience is no longer a consideration, unlike the recent ODI series.

Do not get me wrong I am not anti Cairns, as fully fit & performing with bat & ball he still has a lot to offer world cricket in both forms of the game, let alone NZ cricket. I am just anti his continued selection when he is not 100% or is out of form with the ball, as I do not think he is consistant enough with the bat to continue to hold out specialist batting options such as Marshall & Co anymore. EG Styris is a more consistant batsman & also out performs him with the ball.

The rest pick themselves.

If anyone fails in the first Test I agree that we would be unlikely to see any changes for the 2nd Test unless thru injury. However there could be some changes ahead of the 1st Test for the RSA series.

8D

anzac · 09-12-2003, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by meatspx
I think some people on this forum have been bagging Oram unfairly. His batting can be extremely good, his only weakness is that he can play too defensively. If Bracewell can encourage him to have a more positive mindset then that problem will be solved, and anyway his defensive innings have helped us in the test matches against India last year.

I'm not sure about Wilson........Every man and his dog can get wickets in NZ FC. If Wilson is not another medium-fast bowler and actually has some pace (135km +), then he can do well in international cricket.

agreed re Oram....

Wilson has been reported as bowling above 135 ks v Auckland so it would appear he is showing the same sort of form that got him selected in ODIs nearly 10 years ago. In all honesty if Wilson continues this form then I can see few other bowling options for the Test squad apart from Adams.

Should the likes of Tuffey & Oram come thru the Test seris ok for the ODIs, then I can seen no reason why Wilson should not get a shot in the ODIs ahead of the likes of Mills, Mason, Hitchcock & even Butler.

With it being another 5 ODI series I do not believe seeing both Butler & Wilson getting a start is beyond the realms of possibility considering that the bowling options have yet to be resolved, although I do believe that Adams will get a start on current form.

THE MINGSTER · 09-12-2003, 02:13 PM

Astle will never bowl again, because of his injury and there is talk that he might just never play ODI's again in order to play more Test matches.

Oram is an attacking player, he has shown that.

I really don't know here you guys get it that he is a defensive player. Really.

THE MINGSTER · 09-12-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by meatspx
I think some people on this forum have been bagging Oram unfairly. His batting can be extremely good, his only weakness is that he can play too defensively. If Bracewell can encourage him to have a more positive mindset then that problem will be solved, and anyway his defensive innings have helped us in the test matches against India last year.

I'm not sure about Wilson........Every man and his dog can get wickets in NZ FC. If Wilson is not another medium-fast bowler and actually has some pace (135km +), then he can do well in international cricket.

If Tuffey (125-130) is fast-medium, when he should really just be medium fast, then Wilson who bowls (130-135) should be fast medium. Agarkar bowls at Wilson range and he is only medium fast. Argh all this is confusing me.....

Kent · 09-12-2003, 04:03 PM

I think I'm starting to realise how little can be drawn from F/C cricket, even for home tests. On a stats basis Tama Canning would be a dead cert as our leading domestic wicket-taker last season, yet if I saw Canning at a local park I doubt I'd even look twice. Looking at Wilson's beefy frame, thinning hair and halting action, I have fears he may join the Wisneskis and Penns we've had over the years. We'll see.

Coney described Marshall as a fine collector of runs, which reminded me of an article in the Sunday paper blaming our pitches for the blaze-or-die approach of most Kiwi batsman. It's hard to work the ball because of the inconsistencies in pace, bounce and line. Perhaps this is part of why he's only averaging about 25?

I see Cairns is playing for Canterbury on Friday, replacing McMillan as captain which to me suggests he will be in the test XI. Possibly as NZ captain as well, with Fleming failing a fitness test and is still in doubt for both that game and the tests.

Salamuddin · 09-12-2003, 05:40 PM

I'm really looking forward to this series.

Unlike the other subcontinental sides, Pakistan have done quite well in NZ over the years and would fancy their chances.
But NZ still start favourites.

Should be well contested though.

shaka · 09-12-2003, 08:09 PM

I think we are all reaching conclusions when stephen fleming hasnt even been confirmed to play in the first test due to injury, and the same goes with Robbie Hart.

Perhaps Marshall would play at number 3 in place of fleming and Cairns would be test captain for the 1st test, and so would be in the test squad, not many other players could be considered as captaincy material at this stage in their careers.

What would happen if Hart is ruled out of the 1st test, McCullum would need to improve his keeping skills (he missed a few chances).

southern man · 09-12-2003, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim
I've been watching another young guy Jordan Sheed who plays for Otago.

When I played in a Nelson tournament a few years ago, Sheed was playing for Otago Boys High & he scored quite a few runs. But he's played for Otago for about 2 years now & can't buy a run.

The gy is absolutley we have better batsmen going around i club cricket, but this ******** keeps on getting selected.:!(

Back to the test side Peter Fulton would be my nomination to make it, dam good player.

southern man · 09-12-2003, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kent
I think I'm starting to realise how little can be drawn from F/C cricket, even for home tests. On a stats basis Tama Canning would be a dead cert as our leading domestic wicket-taker last season, yet if I saw Canning at a local park I doubt I'd even look twice. Looking at Wilson's beefy frame, thinning hair and halting action, I have fears he may join the Wisneskis and Penns we've had over the years. We'll see.

Yea but wilson is a CHAMPION and champions suceed at everything they do.

THE MINGSTER · 09-12-2003, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by southern man
Yea but wilson is a CHAMPION and champions suceed at everything they do.

Xactly. I would rather have him than Adams.

Tim · 09-12-2003, 10:33 PM

Well the newspapers are starting to suggest what the team will be & could surprise.

It appears as though, (going by rumours) that McIntosh, Marshall, Wilson & Adams are the 4 that could get either a surprise call up or in Adams case a recall.

But I just can't see McIntosh being selected ahead of Richard Jones. I know alot of people will complain, but the fact is that Jones has been taken on tours to Sri Lanka & India therefore he should be given 1st dibs at playing test cricket before McIntosh.

Bracewell may decide to start with a clean slate & so maybe Jones will fall out of favour.

09-12-2003, 04:03 PM	#24 (permalink)
Kent State 12th Man Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 773	I think I'm starting to realise how little can be drawn from F/C cricket, even for home tests. On a stats basis Tama Canning would be a dead cert as our leading domestic wicket-taker last season, yet if I saw Canning at a local park I doubt I'd even look twice. Looking at Wilson's beefy frame, thinning hair and halting action, I have fears he may join the Wisneskis and Penns we've had over the years. We'll see. Coney described Marshall as a fine collector of runs, which reminded me of an article in the Sunday paper blaming our pitches for the blaze-or-die approach of most Kiwi batsman. It's hard to work the ball because of the inconsistencies in pace, bounce and line. Perhaps this is part of why he's only averaging about 25? I see Cairns is playing for Canterbury on Friday, replacing McMillan as captain which to me suggests he will be in the test XI. Possibly as NZ captain as well, with Fleming failing a fitness test and is still in doubt for both that game and the tests. Last edited by Kent; 09-12-2003 at 05:46 PM.

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09-12-2003, 01:09 AM	#17 (permalink)
Tim Cricketer Of The Year Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Auckland Posts: 7,888	What good is Oram if he can't play some shots? I don't really think he knows how to build an innings with singles & a sprinkling of boundaries. I agree, that he didn't get me chances in the ODI's because NZ were pretty much well out of the game when he came into bat..but he at least needed to show some stickability rather than just getting out tamely.

09-12-2003, 03:33 AM	#19 (permalink)
meatspx U19 Cricketer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 406	I think some people on this forum have been bagging Oram unfairly. His batting can be extremely good, his only weakness is that he can play too defensively. If Bracewell can encourage him to have a more positive mindset then that problem will be solved, and anyway his defensive innings have helped us in the test matches against India last year. I'm not sure about Wilson........Every man and his dog can get wickets in NZ FC. If Wilson is not another medium-fast bowler and actually has some pace (135km +), then he can do well in international cricket.

09-12-2003, 06:44 AM	#20 (permalink)
anzac International Debutant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canberra, ACT Posts: 2,585	Here's how I see it at the moment.... Richardson Vincent Fleming Styris Marshall McMillan Oram Hart Vettori Tuffey Butler Jones & McIntosh as batting cover, with Wilson & Adams as bowling cover. Vincent's latter form in the Indian Tests was good and IMO he was subject to some unlucky decisions - even going into the TVS Cup. His current form in the domestic season gives the selectors no reason to drop him. With Astle's spot open I would initially slot his replacement straight in to no5 - not high enough to have to build the innings, yet still have some batting left to come to build partnerships if they have to try and save the innings. Marshall gets the nod ahead of Jones as Jones is more of a specialist opener in the same mould as Richardson. He also gets the nod ahead of McIntosh as Marshall has current international form against the same team (even if in ODIs), whereas McIntosh has yet to make his debut. Finally Marshall was originally selected for Test cricket & made 40no in RSA in his Test debut 3 years ago as a 20 yr old, against an attack as good as the Pakistani's. Oram gets the 'allrounder' position to himself. He claims to be more of a batting allrounder so lets see him given the opportunity do it. He has big scores to his bat, including a ton in a warm up game on the Indian tour. Batting at 7 he has enough batting to follow to show his capabilities. He needs to play his natural game which IMO is more aggressive than his role lower down the order, as he seems to go into his shell when required to play defensively. He is usually more comfortable against seam bowling and knows he does not need to score runs off Ahktar & Sami - just keep his wicket intact & take the odd single that the different fielding requirements will allow. He needs to use his height v the spinners to break up their length, then he can attack them off their line as they will not get the same levels of assistance as they did on the sub continent. IMO his development into a genuine allrounder has been hampered to a degree by Cairns' continued on / off selections & reputation as 'the' allrounder in the team. Personally I think Oram has contributed more to the team with the ball, and about on a par with the bat in the last 18 months or so. If he does not make runs this series then he can just be considered for his bowling as the 3rd seamer in the side, and Styris & Astle will cover the 'allrounder' positions. Oram then takes his chances along with the likes of Butler, Wilson, Adams, Cairns etc when Bond returns. Butler gets the nod to share the new ball based upon his display in the 2nd Test v India. He had real pace in the 1st innings, and more control when he slowed it down for the 2nd when bowling in the high 130s. Wilson & Adams get the nod as bowling cover because they are the form bowlers at this stage of the season, and both can hold their own with the bat. Cairns does not get a look because he has no form with the ball & Styris can provide a 5th bowling option as he did in India. Furthermore there are form specialist batsmen available as cover for Astle so his batting (which has not been a factor in Test cricket for some time) is not required. Lastly with most of the established team available Cairn's experience is no longer a consideration, unlike the recent ODI series. Do not get me wrong I am not anti Cairns, as fully fit & performing with bat & ball he still has a lot to offer world cricket in both forms of the game, let alone NZ cricket. I am just anti his continued selection when he is not 100% or is out of form with the ball, as I do not think he is consistant enough with the bat to continue to hold out specialist batting options such as Marshall & Co anymore. EG Styris is a more consistant batsman & also out performs him with the ball. The rest pick themselves. If anyone fails in the first Test I agree that we would be unlikely to see any changes for the 2nd Test unless thru injury. However there could be some changes ahead of the 1st Test for the RSA series. 8D

09-12-2003, 02:13 PM	#22 (permalink)
THE MINGSTER Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Auckland Posts: 75	Astle will never bowl again, because of his injury and there is talk that he might just never play ODI's again in order to play more Test matches. Oram is an attacking player, he has shown that. I really don't know here you guys get it that he is a defensive player. Really.

09-12-2003, 05:40 PM	#25 (permalink)
Salamuddin International Debutant Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lakemba, Sydney Posts: 2,074	I'm really looking forward to this series. Unlike the other subcontinental sides, Pakistan have done quite well in NZ over the years and would fancy their chances. But NZ still start favourites. Should be well contested though.

09-12-2003, 08:09 PM	#26 (permalink)
shaka International Regular Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: auckland NZ Posts: 3,045	I think we are all reaching conclusions when stephen fleming hasnt even been confirmed to play in the first test due to injury, and the same goes with Robbie Hart. Perhaps Marshall would play at number 3 in place of fleming and Cairns would be test captain for the 1st test, and so would be in the test squad, not many other players could be considered as captaincy material at this stage in their careers. What would happen if Hart is ruled out of the 1st test, McCullum would need to improve his keeping skills (he missed a few chances).

09-12-2003, 10:33 PM	#30 (permalink)
Tim Cricketer Of The Year Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Auckland Posts: 7,888	Well the newspapers are starting to suggest what the team will be & could surprise. It appears as though, (going by rumours) that McIntosh, Marshall, Wilson & Adams are the 4 that could get either a surprise call up or in Adams case a recall. But I just can't see McIntosh being selected ahead of Richard Jones. I know alot of people will complain, but the fact is that Jones has been taken on tours to Sri Lanka & India therefore he should be given 1st dibs at playing test cricket before McIntosh. Bracewell may decide to start with a clean slate & so maybe Jones will fall out of favour.

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