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Thread: English ATG Team- Open Voting

  1. #31
    International Coach flibbertyjibber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    Perm any two from Hobbs, Sutcliffe and Hutton - if forced to choose I'd omit Sutcliffe, but only just
    This.

    Only other player to get close is Boycott but can't consider him.

  2. #32
    International Captain kingkallis's Avatar
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    Hobbs & Hutton
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  3. #33
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    See I'm a bit torn here. I'm definitely going to include Grace in my eleven, but obviously England's opening candidates are a lot better than their middle order ones, so I'd prefer to include him in the middle order if I could. I'm just not sure if that's feasible based on where Grace actually batted. I know he opened in all bar one of his Test innings but I'm not actually picking him on the basis of his Test career so I'm more interested in learning if he spent much time in the middle order in county cricket, which is something I don't really know.
    As a general principle I think it safe to say that 1,2 or 3 batsman can bat at 4, 5, or 6 with relative ease. But the reverse is not true.

    If WG Grace floats your boat, then sure, why not bat him in the middle order?
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  4. #34
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    As a general principle I think it safe to say that 1,2 or 3 batsman can bat at 4, 5, or 6 with relative ease. But the reverse is not true.

    If WG Grace floats your boat, then sure, why not bat him in the middle order?
    Well if I had to list England's best six ever batsmen in order of how highly I rated them, I'd probably roll with Grace, Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Compton. And while I agree that it's easier for openers to slide down the order a bit than the other way around, picking four openers and a #3 as my 1-5 in the batting lineup would take the piss slightly.
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  5. #35
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Grace and Hobbs, anyway.

    I'll stick Hutton in at 3 and not bother about Sutcliffe.

    Reality of the matter is, though, Grace won't win this vote, so when the middle order votes comes around I'll probably vote for him again.
    Last edited by Prince EWS; 01-11-2012 at 04:05 AM.

  6. #36
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    Jack Hobbs and Len Hutton.
    "If that Swann lad is the future of spin bowling in this country, then we're ****ed." - Nasser Hussain, 1997.

  7. #37
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    On the Sutcliffe v Hutton debate, there is definitely a statistical backing for the idea that Sutcliffe benefited from weaker attacks a little more of the two. When I standardised their averages Hutton's went from 56.67 to 53.94 (95%) while Sutcliffe's went from 60.73 to 56.11 (92%) but certainly neither played in the toughest era to be a batsman by any stretch of the imagination.

    Longevity is why I put Hutton ahead though; he got the equivalent of almost 13 years worth of Tests in, while Sutcliffe didn't make 10. Unpopular reasoning for picking someone so I won't go into that again too much.

  8. #38
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    On the Sutcliffe v Hutton debate, there is definitely a statistical backing for the idea that Sutcliffe benefited from weaker attacks a little more of the two. When I standardised their averages Hutton's went from 56.67 to 53.94 (95%) while Sutcliffe's went from 60.73 to 56.11 (92%) but certainly neither played in the toughest era to be a batsman by any stretch of the imagination.

    Longevity is why I put Hutton ahead though; he got the equivalent of almost 13 years worth of Tests in, while Sutcliffe didn't make 10. Unpopular reasoning for picking someone so I won't go into that again too much.
    What did Hobbs change to?
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  9. #39
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    What did Hobbs change to?
    56.95 --> 55.79 (98%)

    He played for bloody ages too; his scorebook average dropped 4 runs in his last 6 Tests, all played after his 47th birthday. He'd probably have a standardised average pushing 60 if his career was Sutcliffe sized or even Hutton sized.

  10. #40
    International Coach Hurricane's Avatar
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    Grace as a genuine vote and 1 to Boycott just so he gets a vote (but think Hobbs is obv better).
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  11. #41
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Well if I had to list England's best six ever batsmen in order of how highly I rated them, I'd probably roll with Grace, Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Compton. And while I agree that it's easier for openers to slide down the order a bit than the other way around, picking four openers and a #3 as my 1-5 in the batting lineup would take the piss slightly.
    Do you think that your favoured batting line-up of....

    01. Grace
    02. Hobbs
    03. Hammond
    04. Hutton
    05. Sutcliffe
    06. Compton

    ....would score more runs than a more conventional line-up? Such as;

    01. Grace
    02. Hobbs
    03. Hammond
    04. Barrington
    05. May
    06. Compton

    If you do think that your unconventional line-up would score more runs then why not select it? After all, the main objective is to win the Test match, is it not?

  12. #42
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Do you think that your favoured batting line-up of....

    01. Grace
    02. Hobbs
    03. Hammond
    04. Hutton
    05. Sutcliffe
    06. Compton

    ....would score more runs than a more conventional line-up? Such as;

    01. Grace
    02. Hobbs
    03. Hammond
    04. Barrington
    05. May
    06. Compton

    If you do think that your unconventional line-up would score more runs then why not select it? After all, the main objective is to win the Test match, is it not?
    I'd probably not actually bat them in that order; that was just an order of best to worst. Sutcliffe from what I know would be less suited to move down the order than the rest, so I'd probably stick him in at opener and roll with:

    1. Hobbs
    2. Sutcliffe
    3. Hutton
    4. Hammond
    5. Grace
    6. Compton

    I'm torn over whether I'd back that lineup to score more runs than one with May or Barrington in for Sutcliffe and a reshuffle though, for instance. Batting the openers out of position gives the team a higher ceiling (ie. if they take to it then it'll better than the alternative) but also a low floor (you increase the chance of outright failure by doing something largely unproven).

  13. #43
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    I'd probably not actually bat them in that order; that was just an order of best to worst. Sutcliffe from what I know would be less suited to move down the order than the rest, so I'd probably stick him in at opener and roll with:

    1. Hobbs
    2. Sutcliffe
    3. Hutton
    4. Hammond
    5. Grace
    6. Compton

    I'm torn over whether I'd back that lineup to score more runs than one with May or Barrington in for Sutcliffe and a reshuffle though, for instance. Batting the openers out of position gives the team a higher ceiling (ie. if they take to it then it'll better than the alternative) but also a low floor (you increase the chance of outright failure by doing something largely unproven).
    I guess Hutton and Grace are unproven in the middle-order, but the risk must be small. About the only problems they'll encounter is the strange task of facing an old ball and tired bowlers first-up, and a loss of concentration because they're suffering from boredom after waiting too long in the dressing room.

    Are there any other hurdles?

  14. #44
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    You answered your own question earlier..
    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Did Hutton have a weakness against off spin I wonder?
    Its not the easiest thing for a normal opener to come into the middle order against a quality spinner when on 0.


    Hobbs and Hutton are my votes for sure.

  15. #45
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    You answered your own question earlier..


    Its not the easiest thing for a normal opener to come into the middle order against a quality spinner when on 0.


    Hobbs and Hutton are my votes for sure.
    Good point. I guess it would be a potential problem to a new ball specialist to face a spin bowler 'cold'. Although it does seem a bit odd being that Hutton et al would have to face spinners after intervals, or at the beginning of a new day farely regularly.

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