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Thread: English ATG Team- Open Voting

  1. #16
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    England's collection of openers is absolutely in a class of its own, and this list is missing quite a few great ones (especially golden oldies) including off the top of my head:

    WG Grace
    Arthur Shrewsbury
    Archie MacLaren
    CB Fry
    Cyril Washbrook
    John Edrich

    For me England have produced the three greatest openers of all time, and four of the top six. With no restrictions I'd pick Grace and Hobbs and offer my profuse apologies to Sir Len. However, as we are tending to pick Test-specific XIs I'm more than happy to go with the consensus of Hobbs and Hutton. Sutcliffe bloody unlucky, as he would unquestionably make any other team
    .
    Thanks mate, I've added in your recommendations to the first list. I shouldn't have forgotten Grace, big oversight on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Actually, it's more than that Monk. From what I gather, Geoff Boycott fails as a human being. Bit nasty I know, but true none-the-less.
    I don't know about that. I do know he was very difficult in a team environment. Great batsman though.

  2. #17
    U19 Vice-Captain Saint Kopite's Avatar
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    Hobbs and Hutton.

  3. #18
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Hobbs and Sutcliffe.

    Herb is, like maybe only Kenny Barrington, that rarest of things: an underrated English ATG.
    I don't think that anyone under-rates Sutcliffe. It's more to do with the fact that Hutton is so damned good.

    On the other hand, Barrington is too often forgotten. Although probably for good reason - he has a reputation as being an overly defensive batsman.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - David Gower - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  4. #19
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I don't think that anyone under-rates Sutcliffe. It's more to do with the fact that Hutton is so damned good.

    On the other hand, Barrington is too often forgotten. Although probably for good reason - he has a reputation as being an overly defensive batsman.
    Awta.

    Spot on.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3


  5. #20
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Hutton had his issues against pace. Famously dropped during the invincibles' tour for (perceived) windiness under fire. Unquestionably a great, but Sutcliffe's temperament was the classical "none shall pass" opener's mindset.

    Herb's also the only player other than Bradman to end his career with a 60+ average after having played 50 tests.
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  6. #21
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    See I'm a bit torn here. I'm definitely going to include Grace in my eleven, but obviously England's opening candidates are a lot better than their middle order ones, so I'd prefer to include him in the middle order if I could. I'm just not sure if that's feasible based on where Grace actually batted. I know he opened in all bar one of his Test innings but I'm not actually picking him on the basis of his Test career so I'm more interested in learning if he spent much time in the middle order in county cricket, which is something I don't really know.
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  7. #22
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Hutton had his issues against pace. Famously dropped during the invincibles' tour for (perceived) windiness under fire. Unquestionably a great, but Sutcliffe's temperament was the classical "none shall pass" opener's mindset.

    Herb's also the only player other than Bradman to end his career with a 60+ average after having played 50 tests.
    If you compare the two respective lists of bowlers that Hobbs, Sutcliffe, and Hutton had to face then I rate Hutton's task a more difficult one;

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    In other words Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, Cowie, Mahmood, McCormick, Davidson, and Martindale seem a more daunting list of fast bowlers than Gregory, McDonald, Cotter, Wall, and Kelleway.

    What I do find curious is the fact that Hutton got out so often to Rowan (11 dismissals and more than Lindwall or Miller) and Johnson (4 dismissals)- both spinners. Did Hutton have a weakness against off spin I wonder?
    Last edited by watson; 01-11-2012 at 04:33 AM.

  8. #23
    Cricket Web Staff Member stumpski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    See I'm a bit torn here. I'm definitely going to include Grace in my eleven, but obviously England's opening candidates are a lot better than their middle order ones, so I'd prefer to include him in the middle order if I could. I'm just not sure if that's feasible based on where Grace actually batted. I know he opened in all bar one of his Test innings but I'm not actually picking him on the basis of his Test career so I'm more interested in learning if he spent much time in the middle order in county cricket, which is something I don't really know.
    WG's first-class stats are so immense (870 matches played) that to analyse them in any detail, beyond what CricketArchive does for you, can take all day. It seems though, from picking out a few random scorecards, that by his early 20s he was opening the innings, and stayed there pretty much for the rest of his career. In those days there was none of this "is he any good against pace?" You just put your best batsman in first. Incidentally CA also lists 18 relatives, which might itself be a record.

  9. #24
    International 12th Man
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    WG Grace and Jack Hobbs get my vote

  10. #25
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    If you compare the two respective lists of bowlers that Hobbs, Sutcliffe, and Hutton had to face then I rate Hutton's task a more difficult;

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    In other words Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, Cowie, Mahmood, McCormick, Davidson, and Martindale seem a more daunting list of fast bowlers than Gregory, McDonald, Cotter, Wall, and Kelleway.

    What I do find curious is the fact that Hutton got out so often to Rowan (11 dismissals and more than Lindwall or Miller) and Johnson (4 dismissals)- both spinners. Did Hutton have a weakness against off spin I wonder?
    You've got Hutton up twice (first and third links) & Hobbs not at all, ftr.

    Interesting you mention McDonald tho; wouldn't he have been playing CC by the time Herb debuted in tests?

    I suppose one could check how he got on against the likes of McDonald, Larwood and Voce in the FC arena to see how he fared against pace generally, but yeah, on the face of it Hutton did face the stiffer challenge in tests, pace-wise.

  11. #26
    State Vice-Captain JBMAC's Avatar
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    Hobbs and Hutton
    Keep Your Feet on The Ground,Keep Reaching for The Stars!

  12. #27
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Last edited by watson; 01-11-2012 at 03:21 AM.

  13. #28
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    You've got Hutton up twice (first and third links) & Hobbs not at all, ftr.

    Interesting you mention McDonald tho; wouldn't he have been playing CC by the time Herb debuted in tests?

    I suppose one could check how he got on against the likes of McDonald, Larwood and Voce in the FC arena to see how he fared against pace generally, but yeah, on the face of it Hutton did face the stiffer challenge in tests, pace-wise.
    But Hobbs faced McDonald - and too his credit was dismissed only once by him. I was comparing all three openers.

  14. #29
    U19 Debutant Camo999's Avatar
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    Grace & Hobbs

  15. #30
    Cricket Web Staff Member stumpski's Avatar
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    Tantalisingly, Hobbs and Hutton never played in the same match - they both played in 1934, but Hobbs (who was 51) only played a few matches that year, and although Hutton appeared against Surrey at Bradford in July, he'd gone by then.

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