English ATG Team- Open Voting

[Monk]

Originally Posted by The Sean

England's collection of openers is absolutely in a class of its own, and this list is missing quite a few great ones (especially golden oldies) including off the top of my head:

WG Grace
Arthur Shrewsbury
Archie MacLaren
CB Fry
Cyril Washbrook
John Edrich

For me England have produced the three greatest openers of all time, and four of the top six. With no restrictions I'd pick Grace and Hobbs and offer my profuse apologies to Sir Len. However, as we are tending to pick Test-specific XIs I'm more than happy to go with the consensus of Hobbs and Hutton. Sutcliffe bloody unlucky, as he would unquestionably make any other team.

Thanks mate, I've added in your recommendations to the first list. I shouldn't have forgotten Grace, big oversight on my part.

Originally Posted by watson

Actually, it's more than that Monk. From what I gather, Geoff Boycott fails as a human being. Bit nasty I know, but true none-the-less.

I don't know about that. I do know he was very difficult in a team environment. Great batsman though.

[Saint Kopite]

Hobbs and Hutton.

[watson]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Hobbs and Sutcliffe.

Herb is, like maybe only Kenny Barrington, that rarest of things: an underrated English ATG.

I don't think that anyone under-rates Sutcliffe. It's more to do with the fact that Hutton is so damned good.

On the other hand, Barrington is too often forgotten. Although probably for good reason - he has a reputation as being an overly defensive batsman.

[kyear2]

Originally Posted by watson

I don't think that anyone under-rates Sutcliffe. It's more to do with the fact that Hutton is so damned good.

On the other hand, Barrington is too often forgotten. Although probably for good reason - he has a reputation as being an overly defensive batsman.

Awta.

Spot on.

[BoyBrumby]

Hutton had his issues against pace. Famously dropped during the invincibles' tour for (perceived) windiness under fire. Unquestionably a great, but Sutcliffe's temperament was the classical "none shall pass" opener's mindset.

Herb's also the only player other than Bradman to end his career with a 60+ average after having played 50 tests.

[Prince EWS]

See I'm a bit torn here. I'm definitely going to include Grace in my eleven, but obviously England's opening candidates are a lot better than their middle order ones, so I'd prefer to include him in the middle order if I could. I'm just not sure if that's feasible based on where Grace actually batted. I know he opened in all bar one of his Test innings but I'm not actually picking him on the basis of his Test career so I'm more interested in learning if he spent much time in the middle order in county cricket, which is something I don't really know.

[watson]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Hutton had his issues against pace. Famously dropped during the invincibles' tour for (perceived) windiness under fire. Unquestionably a great, but Sutcliffe's temperament was the classical "none shall pass" opener's mindset.

Herb's also the only player other than Bradman to end his career with a 60+ average after having played 50 tests.

If you compare the two respective lists of bowlers that Hobbs, Sutcliffe, and Hutton had to face then I rate Hutton's task a more difficult one;

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis


In other words Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, Cowie, Mahmood, McCormick, Davidson, and Martindale seem a more daunting list of fast bowlers than Gregory, McDonald, Cotter, Wall, and Kelleway.

What I do find curious is the fact that Hutton got out so often to Rowan (11 dismissals and more than Lindwall or Miller) and Johnson (4 dismissals)- both spinners. Did Hutton have a weakness against off spin I wonder?

[stumpski]

Originally Posted by Prince EWS

See I'm a bit torn here. I'm definitely going to include Grace in my eleven, but obviously England's opening candidates are a lot better than their middle order ones, so I'd prefer to include him in the middle order if I could. I'm just not sure if that's feasible based on where Grace actually batted. I know he opened in all bar one of his Test innings but I'm not actually picking him on the basis of his Test career so I'm more interested in learning if he spent much time in the middle order in county cricket, which is something I don't really know.

WG's first-class stats are so immense (870 matches played) that to analyse them in any detail, beyond what CricketArchive does for you, can take all day. It seems though, from picking out a few random scorecards, that by his early 20s he was opening the innings, and stayed there pretty much for the rest of his career. In those days there was none of this "is he any good against pace?" You just put your best batsman in first. Incidentally CA also lists 18 relatives, which might itself be a record.

[Michaelf7777777]

WG Grace and Jack Hobbs get my vote

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by watson

If you compare the two respective lists of bowlers that Hobbs, Sutcliffe, and Hutton had to face then I rate Hutton's task a more difficult;

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis


In other words Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, Cowie, Mahmood, McCormick, Davidson, and Martindale seem a more daunting list of fast bowlers than Gregory, McDonald, Cotter, Wall, and Kelleway.

What I do find curious is the fact that Hutton got out so often to Rowan (11 dismissals and more than Lindwall or Miller) and Johnson (4 dismissals)- both spinners. Did Hutton have a weakness against off spin I wonder?

You've got Hutton up twice (first and third links) & Hobbs not at all, ftr.

Interesting you mention McDonald tho; wouldn't he have been playing CC by the time Herb debuted in tests?

I suppose one could check how he got on against the likes of McDonald, Larwood and Voce in the FC arena to see how he fared against pace generally, but yeah, on the face of it Hutton did face the stiffer challenge in tests, pace-wise.

[JBMAC]

Hobbs and Hutton

[watson]

I'll try that again;

Hobbs - Dismissals
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/St...?PlayerID=0774

Sutcliffe - Dismissals
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/St...?PlayerID=1703

Hutton - Dismissals
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/St...?PlayerID=0826

[watson]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

You've got Hutton up twice (first and third links) & Hobbs not at all, ftr.

Interesting you mention McDonald tho; wouldn't he have been playing CC by the time Herb debuted in tests?

I suppose one could check how he got on against the likes of McDonald, Larwood and Voce in the FC arena to see how he fared against pace generally, but yeah, on the face of it Hutton did face the stiffer challenge in tests, pace-wise.

But Hobbs faced McDonald - and too his credit was dismissed only once by him. I was comparing all three openers.

[Camo999]

Grace & Hobbs

[stumpski]

Tantalisingly, Hobbs and Hutton never played in the same match - they both played in 1934, but Hobbs (who was 51) only played a few matches that year, and although Hutton appeared against Surrey at Bradford in July, he'd gone by then.