Australian ATG Team- Open Voting

[LongHopCassidy]

Originally Posted by benchmark00

lol Warne tactically the best. Gets me every time.

He set Ponting's fields for him, ****. What have you done for Australian cricket lately?

Honestly think Mark Taylor should be subbed in for Morris; every bit as good a bat (averages 3 less against much better bowlers) and an ideal specialist captain who actually, you know, captained Australia.

[uvelocity]

Originally Posted by LongHopCassidy

Honestly think Mark Taylor should be subbed in for Morris; every bit as good a bat (averages 3 less against much better bowlers) and an ideal specialist captain who actually, you know, captained Australia.

yesssssss

but in the absence of this, border, based mainly on his humongous brain

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by benchmark00

I don't know how people could be voting for Border here itbt.

Border was a leader who wasn't a particularly outstanding in tactics but he made up for it by leading from the front and basically single handedly carried a poor line up by leading by example with the bat.

His effectiveness as a leader would therefore be reduced significantly when he would probably be the worst performing player in the team, which would be the case in this environment.

Bench pretty much nailing it here. I've got as much love for AB as any Aussie bloke who grew up in the '80s, but he wouldn't even want the job let alone be the best choice for it in the circumstances.

Bradman for skipper. Miller as his deputy.

[BoyBrumby]

Was Bradman really that a great captain? Not a Benaud or a Chappelli tactically speaking and quite probably a pretty divisive figure in the changing room.

Question marks over his personal courage too, to put it politely.

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Was Bradman really that a great captain? Not a Benaud or a Chappelli tactically speaking and quite probably a pretty divisive figure in the changing room.

Despite the advantages he held (his own batting, the superiority of the teams he captained after the war), Bradman tends to be rated very highly as a captain by those he played with and against, and the teams he skippered - after the war at least - were particularly tight and happy units.

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Question marks over his personal courage too, to put it politely.

Really? You'd never mentioned such a thing before.

[Monk]

Post war he had the team he wanted, and they loved him. The Invinsibles were one of the tightest units ever.

I think guys older than him probably thought him an upstart, while post ww2 guys treated him with a reverential awe. There are anecdotal stories of him setting fields to guys he'd seen 10 years earlier and getting them. He also had a ridiculous will to win, and sought to win always.

[kyear2]

Any one thinks that the middle order picks would be different if redone now. No way was Border a better bat than Punter.

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by kyear2

Any one thinks that the middle order picks would be different if redone now. No way was Border a better bat than Punter.

Agreed. I bloody love the man - and what he means to Australian cricket is topped by very few - but there's no way on earth IMO that AB was a better pure bat than Ponting.

I wasn't around a lot for the Australian voting but it doesn't feel to me like the best or strongest possible combination was selected. Though of course it's still an awesome side.

[watson]

Originally Posted by kyear2

Any one thinks that the middle order picks would be different if redone now. No way was Border a better bat than Punter.

It's easier to be a great batsman when you are surrounded by a team of greats who generally blitz all opposition.

On-the-other-hand, Border averaged 50 while having the unenviable task of propping up a team of novices against the likes of the West Indies in their prime. Therefore, the runs that Border scored under pressure and adversity carry more significance than those scored by Ricky Ponting.

Ponting is great, but Border is greater.

[Monk]

Originally Posted by The Sean

Agreed. I bloody love the man - and what he means to Australian cricket is topped by very few - but there's no way on earth IMO that AB was a better pure bat than Ponting.

I wasn't around a lot for the Australian voting but it doesn't feel to me like the best or strongest possible combination was selected. Though of course it's still an awesome side.

Between you and me, Ponting isn't our second best

Interesting article from The Age today.

[watson]

Originally Posted by Monk

Between you and me, Ponting isn't our second best

Interesting article from The Age today.

Well said;

The only two Australian batsmen outside Bradman who have exceeded their contemporaries more than Murdoch are Border and Greg Chappell. Both played against the mighty West Indian pace attack of the 1970s-1990s. Border played much of his career in teams that struggled. Does that detract from his record, because he is being compared with some sub-average contemporaries? I doubt it. Few batsmen would say batting gets easier when you're the only one in the team who can make runs. Border's record, 50.7 per cent better than the prevailing average, is magnificent but will always be underrated because of his team's lack of success, when the opposite should be the case.

Chappell also batted against the great West Indian bowlers, as well as some great English and Pakistani ones, initially without a helmet. His Test average, of 53.86, is quite amazing when you see that contemporaries of the quality of Ian Chappell, Walters, Ian Redpath, David Hookes and Kim Hughes averaged a long distance beneath him. Greg Chappell's record positively glows when World Series Cricket figures are added. Against the best and fastest bowlers on sporting wickets - Australia only passed 400 twice in 30 innings in Supertests - Greg Chappell's average of 54.42 was twice that of his team. Only one Australian batsman has ever got near that kind of performance, and it ain't Ponting.

And incidently, it is easy to construct a very good case for Greg Chappell being included in a World ATG XI ahead of Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar.

[LongHopCassidy]

Ponting is one of the finest batsman to ever win the sperm lottery, but could he do this against most of the West Indies ATG side?

Border, too often, was Australian cricket's last stand between order and chaos.

[andyc]

Not sure where I stand on Ponting being the second best or not, but my beef with that article is that it is essentially penalising Ponting for having better quality teammates than previous Australian batsmen.

[Satyanash89]

Originally Posted by andyc

Not sure where I stand on Ponting being the second best or not, but my beef with that article is that it is essentially penalising Ponting for having better quality teammates than previous Australian batsmen.

This.
Article was total BS. That said id still have Border over Ponting in that position even though I consider Ponting a better bat overall. Ponting is awesome at coming in at 3-4 and really driving home the advantage quickly, but Border can do the rebuild job brilliantly, and thats what that position needs. This was the same logic i used to pick VVS in the India-Pak XI

[watson]

Originally Posted by andyc

Not sure where I stand on Ponting being the second best or not, but my beef with that article is that it is essentially penalising Ponting for having better quality teammates than previous Australian batsmen.

No it doesn't. The Australian teams of the 70s was brilliant. And G.Chappell stood-out by a significant margin from his peers.

Unless you reckon that Keith Stackpole, Kepler Wessels, Ian Chappell, Doug Walters, Ian Redpath, Kim Hughes, Allan Border etc constitute a mediocre line-up.