Australian ATG Team- Open Voting

[kingkallis]

Trumper and Hayden

[Howe_zat]

Trumper and Bradman

[watson]

Originally Posted by Howe_zat

Trumper and Bradman

Bradman opening the batting?

[LongHopCassidy]

Ponsford and Hayden.

See below for rationale.

[BoyBrumby]

Trumper & Morris.

Both made the cut for the "Mike Brearley's Batting Aces" pack of Top Trumps I had when I was a nipper and that's good enough for me.

[LongHopCassidy]

Seriously, what have we sunk to as a Test-playing country when Bill ****ing Lawry is being entertained as our best bet against Marshall, Hadlee and Wasim? What the **** for? Led the averages on a single England tour (a feat which incidentally hasn't eluded Bill Johnston). Not a single innings heralded as one of the great Australian knocks, unless you count the one eclipsed by Benaud's bowling in 1961. A strike rate which makes Geoff Boycott look like a pathological switch-hitter on amphetamines. Terrible captain, dire fieldsman, pissweak record in the subcontinent. It's beyond disgraceful that a middling batsman like Lawry can be a viable option as one of the best openers to pull on a baggy green because he gelled so well with Simpson, but someone like Langer is an arsey little FTB who stood on the shoulders of giants.

A giant, no less, whose career stats can be tampered to look worse than Nasser Hussain's if you factor in first-chance averages and look at their records in the second innings of third Tests with a UV light. Hayden along with Ponsford has easily the best average among this mob and he's non-negotiably crap because he mis-hit half a dozen Murray Minted balls.

It rustles me, it really does. Lawry should be fighting for the last position in the commentary box for these simmed games, let alone wearing whites.

[watson]

Originally Posted by LongHopCassidy

Seriously, what have we sunk to as a Test-playing country when Bill ****ing Lawry is being entertained as our best bet against Marshall, Hadlee and Wasim? What the **** for? Led the averages on a single England tour (a feat which incidentally hasn't eluded Bill Johnston). Not a single innings heralded as one of the great Australian knocks, unless you count the one eclipsed by Benaud's bowling in 1961. A strike rate which makes Geoff Boycott look like a pathological switch-hitter on amphetamines. Terrible captain, dire fieldsman, pissweak record in the subcontinent. It's beyond disgraceful that a middling batsman like Lawry can be a viable option as one of the best openers to pull on a baggy green because he gelled so well with Simpson, but someone like Langer is an arsey little FTB who stood on the shoulders of giants.

A giant, no less, whose career stats can be tampered to look worse than Nasser Hussain's if you factor in first-chance averages and look at their records in the second innings of third Tests with a UV light. Hayden along with Ponsford has easily the best average among this mob and he's non-negotiably crap because he mis-hit half a dozen Murray Minted balls.

It disgusts me, it really does. Lawry should be fighting for the last position in the commentary box for these simmed games, let alone wearing whites.

I don't think that you know what you are talking about;

210 V WI - Bridgetown 1965 (Hall, Griffith, Sobers, Gibbs)
205 V WI - MCG 1968 (Edwards, Davis, Sobers, Gibbs)
166 V Eng - Brisbane 1965 (Brown, Higgs, Allen, Titmus)
157 V SA - MCG 1964 (Pollock, Goddard)
151 V WI - SCG 1969 (Hall, Griffith, Sobers, Gibbs)
135 V Eng - Oval 1968 (Snow, Brown, Underwood, Illingworth)
130 V Eng - Lords 1961 (Trueman, Statham, Lock)
119 V Eng - Adelaide 1966 (Jones, Brown, Allen, Titmus)
108 V Eng - MCG 1966 (Jones, Brown, Knight, Titmus)
106 V Eng - Manchester 1961 (Cartwright, Price, Rumsey, Titmus)
105 V WI - Brisbane 1968 (Griffith, Holford, Sobers, Gibbs)
102 V Eng - Manchester 1961 (Trueman, Statham, Flavell, Allen)
100 V Ind - MCG 1967 (Chandra, Prasanna, Desai)

(Yeah, a lot of really ****-house bowlers listed there)

Total Runs = 5234
Average = 47.15
Average in India (8 tests) = 43.58

I also recommend that you listen to Ian Chappell. It is a myth that Lawry was overly defensive;

Chappell's Ashes Captains: Bill Lawry - YouTube

[LongHopCassidy]

Originally Posted by watson

I don't think that you know what you are talking about;

210 V WI - Bridgetown 1965 (Hall, Griffith, Sobers, Gibbs)
205 V WI - MCG 1968 (Edwards, Davis, Sobers, Gibbs)
166 V Eng - Brisbane 1965 (Brown, Higgs, Allen, Titmus)
157 V SA - MCG 1964 (Pollock, Goddard)
151 V WI - SCG 1969 (Hall, Griffith, Sobers, Gibbs)
135 V Eng - Oval 1968 (Snow, Brown, Underwood, Illingworth)
130 V Eng - Lords 1961 (Trueman, Statham, Lock)
119 V Eng - Adelaide 1966 (Jones, Brown, Allen, Titmus)
108 V Eng - MCG 1966 (Jones, Brown, Knight, Titmus)
106 V Eng - Manchester 1961 (Cartwright, Price, Rumsey, Titmus)
105 V WI - Brisbane 1968 (Griffith, Holford, Sobers, Gibbs)
102 V Eng - Manchester 1961 (Trueman, Statham, Flavell, Allen)
100 V Ind - MCG 1967 (Chandra, Prasanna, Desai)

(Yeah, a lot of really ****-house bowlers listed there)

Total Runs = 5234
Average = 47.15
Average in India (8 tests) = 43.58

I also recommend that you listen to Ian Chappell. It is a myth that Lawry was overly defensive;

Chappell's Ashes Captains: Bill Lawry - YouTube

I never said he didn't score his tons against good attacks, I said that not many of them were particularly significant or match-turning. Although I do concede I spoke in haste after being reminded of the Bridgetown knock and his 1961 Old Trafford effort.

And Lawry had four not-outs in India, which obfuscates the unfortunate fact that he made no hundreds there. Didn't really carpe diem in Pakistan, either.

He was an excellent strokemaker at the outset of his career (which was why he made the 1961 tour) but his scoring inktiative gradually deteriorated to the point where he was ultimately a liability to his own side. It's a similar argument to the one posed against Botham's bowling record: he damaged his legacy by sticking around too long.

See Gideon Haigh vis a vis his Cricinfo profile:

After catching the eye with elegant strokes on his first Ashes tour in 1961, long-nosed left-hander Bill Lawry steadily pared his batting back, until it was as skeletal as his appearance. By the time he inherited Australia's captaincy against India in 1967-68, he had become the most rigidly self-denying batsman of his generation, as hard to watch as he was to dismiss. Ian Wooldridge, the English journalist, called him "a corpse with pads on".

Good opener? Of course, he'd be welcome in the current Australian team. ATG? No.

[Flametree]

Ponsford and Simpson

[bagapath]

trumper and hayden. rock and roll.

[uvelocity]

haydos and tubby (c)

[Jager]

Trumper. Morris.

[kingkallis]

Matt Hayden is criminally under-rated on CW.

[AndyZaltzHair]

Victor Trumper and Arthur Morris

[Howe_zat]

Originally Posted by watson

Bradman opening the batting?

Yup. I think Ponting, who usually gets left out of the Aussie middle order, was significantly better than most of the opening options and it's worth the slight cheat on position.

I think it's odd that people like Hutton or Headley are played out of position in these XIs but the Don never is, surely if any no.3 is qualified to open the batting, he is.